From dotancohen at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 12:59:42 2009
From: dotancohen at gmail.com (Dotan Cohen)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 22:59:42 +0300
Subject: [Vimperator] A new modal browser
Message-ID: <880dece00909061259o5594e240v13766ae38b341035@mail.gmail.com>

In the spirit of "competition is good":
http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/09/05/2142235/Meet-Uzbl-mdash-a-Web-Browser-With-the-Unix-Philosophy

I wish this project the best of luck!

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il

From chm.duquesne at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 13:07:16 2009
From: chm.duquesne at gmail.com (Christophe-Marie Duquesne)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 22:07:16 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] A new modal browser
In-Reply-To: <880dece00909061259o5594e240v13766ae38b341035@mail.gmail.com>
References: <880dece00909061259o5594e240v13766ae38b341035@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8ccc3510909061307s4a68c0f6u26ecf6329f118394@mail.gmail.com>

There is also vimpression : https://projects.ring0.de/webkitbrowser/.

On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Dotan Cohen<dotancohen at gmail.com> wrote:
> In the spirit of "competition is good":
> http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/09/05/2142235/Meet-Uzbl-mdash-a-Web-Browser-With-the-Unix-Philosophy
>
> I wish this project the best of luck!
>
> --
> Dotan Cohen
>
> http://what-is-what.com
> http://gibberish.co.il
> _______________________________________________
> Vimperator mailing list
> Vimperator at mozdev.org
> https://www.mozdev.org/mailman/listinfo/vimperator
>



-- 
Christophe-Marie Duquesne

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 17:50:26 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 20:50:26 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] A new modal browser
In-Reply-To: <880dece00909061259o5594e240v13766ae38b341035@mail.gmail.com>
References: <880dece00909061259o5594e240v13766ae38b341035@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090907005026.GB5009@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Sun, Sep 06, 2009 at 10:59:42PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:
>In the spirit of "competition is good":
>http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/09/05/2142235/Meet-Uzbl-mdash-a-Web-Browser-With-the-Unix-Philosophy
>
>I wish this project the best of luck!

Don't worry, we're big fans of competition. Especially when it 
involves non-Gecko browsers. We'd probably all jump ship if we 
came across a good alternative to Gecko. I don't think Uzbl will 
be the answer in my case, though. There are a few others too. 
Surf seems pretty popular on the Suckless list, lately. I'm 
holding out for a well engineered scheme-based browser, myself. 
I can't really get behind coding a web browser in C (or Obj-C or 
C++) these days. The DOM is just not static-typing, explicit 
memory management friendly. (Oh, and I'm a functional junkie. It 
just takes too many lines of C to write one line of good, 
functional JS.)

-- 
Kris Maglione

Most software today is very much like an Egyptian pyramid with
millions of bricks piled on top of each other, with no structural
integrity, but just done by brute force and thousands of slaves.
	--Alan Kay


From jrhorn424 at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 18:54:33 2009
From: jrhorn424 at gmail.com (Jeff Horn)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 21:54:33 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] A new modal browser
In-Reply-To: <20090907005026.GB5009@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <880dece00909061259o5594e240v13766ae38b341035@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090907005026.GB5009@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <40c11efc0909061854ja16f42djdbca968a64c3b900@mail.gmail.com>

Not to hijack the thread, but I'm a bit of a newbie when it comes to
open source software and programming in general. I'm having a tough
time getting any of these browsers to install from source on Mac OS X
Leopard.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone watching this thread has any
suggestions for modal browsers on the Mac? Vimperator has definitely
made Firefox my browser of choice, but there are just so many
rendering bugs, particularly since I'm on Comcast. I think they hate
firefox. :-P

I think I'll try installing some of these on a virtual machine to try them out.

Cheers and thanks for any suggestions,

Jeff

On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Kris Maglione<maglione.k at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 06, 2009 at 10:59:42PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:
>>
>> In the spirit of "competition is good":
>>
>> http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/09/05/2142235/Meet-Uzbl-mdash-a-Web-Browser-With-the-Unix-Philosophy
>>
>> I wish this project the best of luck!
>
> Don't worry, we're big fans of competition. Especially when it involves
> non-Gecko browsers. We'd probably all jump ship if we came across a good
> alternative to Gecko. I don't think Uzbl will be the answer in my case,
> though. There are a few others too. Surf seems pretty popular on the
> Suckless list, lately. I'm holding out for a well engineered scheme-based
> browser, myself. I can't really get behind coding a web browser in C (or
> Obj-C or C++) these days. The DOM is just not static-typing, explicit memory
> management friendly. (Oh, and I'm a functional junkie. It just takes too
> many lines of C to write one line of good, functional JS.)
>
> --
> Kris Maglione
>
> Most software today is very much like an Egyptian pyramid with
> millions of bricks piled on top of each other, with no structural
> integrity, but just done by brute force and thousands of slaves.
> ? ? ? ?--Alan Kay
>
> _______________________________________________
> Vimperator mailing list
> Vimperator at mozdev.org
> https://www.mozdev.org/mailman/listinfo/vimperator
>



-- 
Jeffrey Horn
PhD Student in Economics
George Mason University

(704) 271-4797
jhorn at gmu.edu
jrhorn424 at gmail.com

From dougkearns at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 19:20:12 2009
From: dougkearns at gmail.com (Doug Kearns)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 12:20:12 +1000
Subject: [Vimperator] A new modal browser
In-Reply-To: <20090907005026.GB5009@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <880dece00909061259o5594e240v13766ae38b341035@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090907005026.GB5009@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <644fc65e0909061920p69967df5n36149543120aacdf@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 10:50 AM, Kris Maglione<maglione.k at gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>

> I'm holding out for a well engineered scheme-based
> browser, myself. I can't really get behind coding a web browser in C (or
> Obj-C or C++) these days. The DOM is just not static-typing, explicit memory
> management friendly. (Oh, and I'm a functional junkie. It just takes too
> many lines of C to write one line of good, functional JS.)

I've mentioned this to Kris before but others may be interested in
following or helping with Minno/Sqeme http://minno.sourceforge.net/

Doug

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 20:40:54 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 23:40:54 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] A new modal browser
In-Reply-To: <644fc65e0909061920p69967df5n36149543120aacdf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <880dece00909061259o5594e240v13766ae38b341035@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090907005026.GB5009@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<644fc65e0909061920p69967df5n36149543120aacdf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090907034054.GA8027@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Mon, Sep 07, 2009 at 12:20:12PM +1000, Doug Kearns wrote:
>> I'm holding out for a well engineered scheme-based
>> browser, myself. I can't really get behind coding a web browser in C (or
>> Obj-C or C++) these days. The DOM is just not static-typing, explicit memory
>> management friendly. (Oh, and I'm a functional junkie. It just takes too
>> many lines of C to write one line of good, functional JS.)
>
>I've mentioned this to Kris before but others may be interested in
>following or helping with Minno/Sqeme http://minno.sourceforge.net/

For what it's worth, when the groundwork is more mature, I may 
work on implementing something similar to Vimperator on Sqeme. 
I'm not interested in Minno, because I can't stand Conkeror/Emacs.

-- 
Kris Maglione

A smart terminal is not a smartass terminal, but rather a terminal you
can educate.
	-- Rob Pike


From dpb at driftaway.org  Sun Sep  6 22:50:32 2009
From: dpb at driftaway.org (Daniel Bainton)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 08:50:32 +0300
Subject: [Vimperator] A new modal browser
In-Reply-To: <20090907005026.GB5009@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <880dece00909061259o5594e240v13766ae38b341035@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090907005026.GB5009@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <dd9711230909062250t3c07315iaba5c10bd868bf1c@mail.gmail.com>

2009/9/7 Kris Maglione <maglione.k at gmail.com>:
> On Sun, Sep 06, 2009 at 10:59:42PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:
>>
>> In the spirit of "competition is good":
>>
>> http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/09/05/2142235/Meet-Uzbl-mdash-a-Web-Browser-With-the-Unix-Philosophy
>>
>> I wish this project the best of luck!
>
> Don't worry, we're big fans of competition. Especially when it involves
> non-Gecko browsers. We'd probably all jump ship if we came across a good
> alternative to Gecko. I don't think Uzbl will be the answer in my case,
> though. There are a few others too. Surf seems pretty popular on the
> Suckless list, lately. I'm holding out for a well engineered scheme-based
> browser, myself. I can't really get behind coding a web browser in C (or
> Obj-C or C++) these days. The DOM is just not static-typing, explicit memory
> management friendly. (Oh, and I'm a functional junkie. It just takes too
> many lines of C to write one line of good, functional JS.)

Of course Surf is pretty popular on the Suckless list, it's made by
Suckless people and hosted by them. (http://surf.suckless.org)

--
Daniel

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 22:56:27 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 01:56:27 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] A new modal browser
In-Reply-To: <dd9711230909062250t3c07315iaba5c10bd868bf1c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <880dece00909061259o5594e240v13766ae38b341035@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090907005026.GB5009@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<dd9711230909062250t3c07315iaba5c10bd868bf1c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090907055627.GA17043@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Mon, Sep 07, 2009 at 08:50:32AM +0300, Daniel Bainton wrote:
>Of course Surf is pretty popular on the Suckless list, it's made by
>Suckless people and hosted by them. (http://surf.suckless.org)

Nah, lots of our software doesn't get any attention. People 
ramble on about Surf, though, which is probably a good sign.

-- 
Kris Maglione

You can get into a habit of thought in which you enjoy making fun of
all those other people who don?t see things as clearly as you do.  We
have to guard carefully against it.
	--Carl Sagan


From jerome at aranha.fr  Sun Sep  6 23:26:26 2009
From: jerome at aranha.fr (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=F4me?=)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 08:26:26 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] A new modal browser
In-Reply-To: <40c11efc0909061854ja16f42djdbca968a64c3b900@mail.gmail.com>
References: <880dece00909061259o5594e240v13766ae38b341035@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090907005026.GB5009@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<40c11efc0909061854ja16f42djdbca968a64c3b900@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1252304786.8461.4.camel@monPC.aranha.ici>

Le dimanche 06 septembre 2009 ? 21:54 -0400, Jeff Horn a ?crit :
> Anyway, I was wondering if anyone watching this thread has any
> suggestions for modal browsers on the Mac? Vimperator has definitely
> made Firefox my browser of choice, but there are just so many
> rendering bugs, particularly since I'm on Comcast. I think they hate
> firefox. :-P

Firefox rendering ? Really ?

Errors found while checking this document as XHTML 1.0 Transitional!
Result: 250 Errors, 8 warning(s) 
Modified: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:24:06 GMT
Server: Microsoft-IIS/6.0

Best regards

-- 
J?r?me Dautzenberg


From Daniel.Trstenjak at science-computing.de  Mon Sep  7 01:51:17 2009
From: Daniel.Trstenjak at science-computing.de (Daniel Trstenjak)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 10:51:17 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] A new modal browser
In-Reply-To: <13c4513d0909061854v23e95202y707758e468d1da27@mail.gmail.com>
References: <880dece00909061259o5594e240v13766ae38b341035@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090907005026.GB5009@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<13c4513d0909061854v23e95202y707758e468d1da27@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090907085116.GA19923@bug.science-computing.de>


On Sun, Sep 06, 2009 at 07:54:10PM -0600, Sean Crotty wrote:
> Oh, then jump on the Scala train!

Scala is the Anti-Lisp. More syntax isn't the answer, it's the problem.

-- 
                                                                                                                                           
 Daniel Trstenjak         Tel   : +49 (0)7071-9457-264
 science + computing ag   FAX   : +49 (0)7071-9457-511
 Hagellocher Weg 73       mailto: Daniel.Trstenjak at science-computing.de
 D-72070 T?bingen         WWW   : http://www.science-computing.de/                                                                      
-- 
Vorstand/Board of Management:
Dr. Bernd Finkbeiner, Dr. Roland Niemeier, 
Dr. Arno Steitz, Dr. Ingrid Zech
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats/
Chairman of the Supervisory Board:
Michel Lepert
Sitz/Registered Office: Tuebingen
Registergericht/Registration Court: Stuttgart
Registernummer/Commercial Register No.: HRB 382196 



From chousuke at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 02:36:29 2009
From: chousuke at gmail.com (Jarkko Oranen)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 12:36:29 +0300
Subject: [Vimperator] A new modal browser
In-Reply-To: <20090907085116.GA19923@bug.science-computing.de>
References: <880dece00909061259o5594e240v13766ae38b341035@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090907005026.GB5009@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<13c4513d0909061854v23e95202y707758e468d1da27@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090907085116.GA19923@bug.science-computing.de>
Message-ID: <2C5F03EC-4247-462F-994B-CB3F2C219B63@gmail.com>


On 7 Sep 2009, at 11:51, Daniel Trstenjak wrote:
>
> On Sun, Sep 06, 2009 at 07:54:10PM -0600, Sean Crotty wrote:
>> Oh, then jump on the Scala train!
>
> Scala is the Anti-Lisp. More syntax isn't the answer, it's the  
> problem.

Might I suggest Clojure then? It's the language that made me a lisper  
and a functional programmer (and consequently also an emacs user. /me  
? paredit and SLIME).

Granted, being native on the JVM causes some inevitable warts, but I  
think the benefits (libraries, compatibility) outweigh those. Also, It  
has slightly more syntax than CL or Scheme, that is, *true* vector,  
map and set literals. The code is actually made up of more than just  
lists. But I think that's an advantage. :)

I wonder if there is any good way to use Webkit on the JVM...

--
Jarkko

From dougkearns at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 02:36:44 2009
From: dougkearns at gmail.com (Doug Kearns)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 19:36:44 +1000
Subject: [Vimperator] A new modal browser
In-Reply-To: <13c4513d0909061854v23e95202y707758e468d1da27@mail.gmail.com>
References: <880dece00909061259o5594e240v13766ae38b341035@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090907005026.GB5009@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<13c4513d0909061854v23e95202y707758e468d1da27@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <644fc65e0909070236w432dc3abmb84c0deb10900665@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Sean Crotty<scrotty at gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh, then jump on the Scala train!

Hmmm, a Scala/Jambi browser certainly hadn't occurred to me. :)

Doug

From dougkearns at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 02:42:30 2009
From: dougkearns at gmail.com (Doug Kearns)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 19:42:30 +1000
Subject: [Vimperator] A new modal browser
In-Reply-To: <2C5F03EC-4247-462F-994B-CB3F2C219B63@gmail.com>
References: <880dece00909061259o5594e240v13766ae38b341035@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090907005026.GB5009@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<13c4513d0909061854v23e95202y707758e468d1da27@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090907085116.GA19923@bug.science-computing.de>
	<2C5F03EC-4247-462F-994B-CB3F2C219B63@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <644fc65e0909070242x26f9e0ecwe28333d817d2c122@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 7:36 PM, Jarkko Oranen<chousuke at gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
> I wonder if there is any good way to use Webkit on the JVM...

Qt Jambi - http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2008/01/11/who-needs-a-browser-qt-jambi-just-got-one/

Doug

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 07:17:51 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 10:17:51 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] A new modal browser
In-Reply-To: <2C5F03EC-4247-462F-994B-CB3F2C219B63@gmail.com>
References: <880dece00909061259o5594e240v13766ae38b341035@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090907005026.GB5009@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<13c4513d0909061854v23e95202y707758e468d1da27@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090907085116.GA19923@bug.science-computing.de>
	<2C5F03EC-4247-462F-994B-CB3F2C219B63@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090907141751.GA1589@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Mon, Sep 07, 2009 at 12:36:29PM +0300, Jarkko Oranen wrote:
> Granted, being native on the JVM causes some inevitable warts, but I  
> think the benefits (libraries, compatibility) outweigh those.

I really can't see many advantages of running on the JVM. The 
Java standard libraries are by all accounts odious. Every 
interface is overwrought. These people seem utterly unable to 
grasp the concept of orthagonality. And they seem to have a 
penchant for making simple things difficult and difficult things 
doable. As for compatiblity, I can only ask, with what?

-- 
Kris Maglione

Anyone who considers arithmetical methods of producing random numbers
is, of course, in a state of sin.
	--John von Neumann


From now at bitwi.se  Mon Sep  7 07:38:32 2009
From: now at bitwi.se (Nikolai Weibull)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 16:38:32 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] A new modal browser
In-Reply-To: <20090907141751.GA1589@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <880dece00909061259o5594e240v13766ae38b341035@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090907005026.GB5009@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<13c4513d0909061854v23e95202y707758e468d1da27@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090907085116.GA19923@bug.science-computing.de>
	<2C5F03EC-4247-462F-994B-CB3F2C219B63@gmail.com>
	<20090907141751.GA1589@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <dbfc82860909070738s11558205i93239b40c51c32a7@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 16:17, Kris Maglione<maglione.k at gmail.com> wrote:

> These people seem utterly unable to grasp the concept of orthagonality.

Perhaps they?re spelling it wrong.

;-)

From chousuke at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 07:58:04 2009
From: chousuke at gmail.com (Jarkko Oranen)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 17:58:04 +0300
Subject: [Vimperator] A new modal browser
In-Reply-To: <20090907141751.GA1589@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <880dece00909061259o5594e240v13766ae38b341035@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090907005026.GB5009@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<13c4513d0909061854v23e95202y707758e468d1da27@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090907085116.GA19923@bug.science-computing.de>
	<2C5F03EC-4247-462F-994B-CB3F2C219B63@gmail.com>
	<20090907141751.GA1589@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <31BABC8C-EB7C-4C9A-95C6-CCEA2A92BDC7@gmail.com>


On 7 Sep 2009, at 17:17, Kris Maglione wrote:
>
> I really can't see many advantages of running on the JVM. The Java  
> standard libraries are by all accounts odious. Every interface is  
> overwrought. These people seem utterly unable to grasp the concept  
> of orthagonality. And they seem to have a penchant for making simple  
> things difficult and difficult things doable. As for compatiblity, I  
> can only ask, with what?
>


I guess I should have been more specific about the advantages. Perhaps  
most significantly, using the JVM as the host gains Clojure a mature,  
continuously developed, fast, dynamically optimising virtual machine  
to run on for free. Code reuse at its best.

Also consider the sheer number of Java libraries. It's rather  
improbable that all of them are awful. :) As for compatibility, I  
meant existing systems. Even though Java is not my favourite language  
by a long shot, it's still one of the most used languages?I can't say  
*the* most used because I have no data to back that up, but it would  
not surprise me if it had overtaken C already, at least in certain  
circles.

As an aside, Clojure actually has a port underway to the CLR, but for  
now the language is rather JVM-centric. One of the goals for the near  
future is to rewrite the Clojure compiler in Clojure itself, which  
ought to facilitate these efforts.

Please don't dismiss Clojure because it's associated with Java. It may  
not be for everyone, but I know that it's my personal favourite. I  
know I sound fanboyish, but there are so many things that Clojure IMO  
simply does *right*, even if it's not quite "pure" due to the  
integration with the JVM and its limitations.

--
Jarkko 

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Mon Sep  7 10:23:08 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 13:23:08 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] A new modal browser
In-Reply-To: <dbfc82860909070738s11558205i93239b40c51c32a7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <880dece00909061259o5594e240v13766ae38b341035@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090907005026.GB5009@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<13c4513d0909061854v23e95202y707758e468d1da27@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090907085116.GA19923@bug.science-computing.de>
	<2C5F03EC-4247-462F-994B-CB3F2C219B63@gmail.com>
	<20090907141751.GA1589@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<dbfc82860909070738s11558205i93239b40c51c32a7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090907172308.GA19873@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Mon, Sep 07, 2009 at 04:38:32PM +0200, Nikolai Weibull wrote:
>> These people seem utterly unable to grasp the concept of orthagonality.
>
>Perhaps they?re spelling it wrong.

Perhaps, or perhaps spelling is not the best feature of messages 
written first thing in the morning. I'll go with the latter 
hypothesis.

-- 
Kris Maglione

The object-oriented model makes it easy to build up programs by
accretion.  What this often means, in practice, is that it provides a
structured way to write spaghetti code.
	--Paul Graham


From conrad.irwin at googlemail.com  Wed Sep  9 09:32:39 2009
From: conrad.irwin at googlemail.com (Conrad Irwin)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 17:32:39 +0100
Subject: [Vimperator] Vimperator breaks my titlebar by changing to
 "Vimperator" from "Firefox"
In-Reply-To: <d1a98c8c0909090757u3df60687gd9039298531afd45@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d1a98c8c0909090757u3df60687gd9039298531afd45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1252513959.19835.0.camel@localhost>

On Wed, 2009-09-09 at 07:57 -0700, E.F. Tymac wrote:
> Is there a way to change it back to "Firefox" from "Vimperator"? 
Put:

set titlestring=Firefox

into your .vimperatorrc

Conrad



From rz at linux-m68k.org  Wed Sep  9 02:39:32 2009
From: rz at linux-m68k.org (Richard Zidlicky)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 11:39:32 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Adding Bookmarklet Code to the RC File
In-Reply-To: <40c11efc0908301732t35deb547vc1996bc37e0e54ac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <40c11efc0908301646s70a4fb74u50c6fcadeeb1c05d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831000200.GA16505@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<40c11efc0908301732t35deb547vc1996bc37e0e54ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090909093932.GA5251@linux-m68k.org>

On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 08:32:42PM -0400, Jeff Horn wrote:
> OK? Thanks, but I'm a novice. Javascript or java, whatever it is, I
> don't know it. And I'm pretty sure it could help me in writing a
> bookmarklet plugin for vimperator.

don't think you need a bookmarklet plugin, that would be obfuscation.

I think that the use of bookmarklets in Vimperator would be a good candidate for 
the FAQ, it is one of the more obvious things to do with vimperator.

When mapping them to keys you want to:
 - replace all character quotations (%20,%22 etc..) with the respective characters
 - prefix everything that acesses documents structures with a "content."
 - wrap them in a function
 - map the function

Here is one example from my .vimperatorrc:

" ForceBackground from Bookmarklet
javascript <<EOF
function ForceColours()
{
  var newSS, styles='* { background: #FFD3A7 ! important; color: black !important } :link, :link * { color: #0000EE !important } :visited, :visited * { color: #551A8B !important }'; 

  if(content.document.createStyleSheet) 
     { content.document.createStyleSheet('javascript:\''+styles+'\''); } 
  else 
     { newSS=content.document.createElement('link'); 
       newSS.rel='stylesheet'; 
       newSS.href='data:text/css,'+escape(styles); 
       content.document.documentElement.childNodes[0].appendChild(newSS); } 
return "Forced";
}
EOF

map f :echo ForceColours() <CR>

It would work without wrapping in an extra fucntion, however the whole code would be displayd
upon invocation of the bookmarklet which looks bad in case of longer code blocks.

Richard

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Wed Sep  9 18:14:08 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 21:14:08 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Adding Bookmarklet Code to the RC File
In-Reply-To: <20090909093932.GA5251@linux-m68k.org>
References: <40c11efc0908301646s70a4fb74u50c6fcadeeb1c05d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831000200.GA16505@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<40c11efc0908301732t35deb547vc1996bc37e0e54ac@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090909093932.GA5251@linux-m68k.org>
Message-ID: <20090910011408.GA22471@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Wed, Sep 09, 2009 at 11:39:32AM +0200, Richard Zidlicky wrote:
>I think that the use of bookmarklets in Vimperator would be a good candidate for 
>the FAQ, it is one of the more obvious things to do with vimperator.
>
>When mapping them to keys you want to:
> - replace all character quotations (%20,%22 etc..) with the respective characters
> - prefix everything that acesses documents structures with a "content."
> - wrap them in a function
> - map the function

That's absurdly overcomplicated. There's no great reason to do 
anything other than:

	:open <bookmarklet_code>

(except for this absurd 'urlsep' nonsense, but it should rarely 
matter). Other than that, you might sometimes want to wrap 
bookmarlet code in with (content) {...}, but not often.

-- 
Kris Maglione

The computing scientist's main challenge is not to get confused by the
complexities of his own making.
	--Edsger W. Dijkstra


From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Fri Sep 11 07:48:59 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 16:48:59 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
Message-ID: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>

Hi all,

some of you might know, that we'll migrate vimperator.org away from trac
to google sites. The reason is, that Daniel doesn't have a need for his
dedicated web hosting in future. I can fully understand that, and want
to say thank you to him for serving vimperator.org about a year now!

He gave me the advice to use google sites, which seems *really* easy
to setup nice looking homepage:

http://sites.google.com/a/vimperator.org/test/home

(far from ready, and themes can be changed with a mouse click, so no
need to complain about that).

However, the homepage is not the only thing which needs to be moved.
We also need to move the git repository and the bug tracker.

Ideas:

1.) Google code: SVN, maybe mercurial, very nice bug tracker
2.) github or gitorious: Git but no integrated bug tracker
3.) Move back to mozdev.org: I think they support mercurial now,
    but last time, they bug tracker sucked a little.
    On the other hand vimperator at mozdev.org's mailing list adress
    would fit better again :)
4.) Your suggestesions...

Do you have some good suggestions how to move vimperator.org?

And it's not about cost, it's about:
a) Ease of transistion: I don't have much time for maintainance work,
   nor for writing much PHP, etc. code myself.
b) While I appreciate anybody who wants to help hosting, things
   change so quickly, and it's better to rely on sites where i can
   be sure, vimperator.org will be present in 5 years time as well.

best regards,

Martin

PS: Daniel's contract is until end of October, we should try to finalize
the move until the beginning of October.

PPS: It really sucks that I am not sure, if we can integrate the
existing tickets :( One more reason for the need of a "big" hoster,
where we won't have to move the tickets yet another time in future.

From rupa at lrrr.us  Fri Sep 11 08:01:46 2009
From: rupa at lrrr.us (rupa)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:01:46 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <9a20967a0909110801u5bc15c45v997055bc65bcae8c@mail.gmail.com>

github does have an issue tracker. Maybe not robust enough for your needs,
but people can open issues, and they can be closed directly from commits.
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From maglione.k at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 08:48:58 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:48:58 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090911154858.GA24353@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 04:48:59PM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>1.) Google code: SVN, maybe mercurial, very nice bug tracker

If you switch to SVN, I'm leaving.

>2.) github or gitorious: Git but no integrated bug tracker

It's probably not a great idea to switch VCS again.

>3.) Move back to mozdev.org: I think they support mercurial now,
>    but last time, they bug tracker sucked a little.
>    On the other hand vimperator at mozdev.org's mailing list adress
>    would fit better again :)

Mozdev is a bit of a mess. Let's just move the list to Google 
Groups.

>4.) Your suggestesions...

You might have a look at sharesource.

-- 
Kris Maglione

If the designers of X Windows built cars, there would be no fewer than
five steering wheels hidden about the cockpit, none of which followed
the same principles ? but you?d be able to shift gears with your car
stereo.  Useful feature that.
	--Marcus J. Ranum, DEC


From ervandew at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 08:51:19 2009
From: ervandew at gmail.com (Eric Van Dewoestine)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 08:51:19 -0700
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <afa9caf10909110851u6d92b66cy938a82212ff84f1@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 7:48 AM, Martin Stubenschrott
<stubenschrott at vimperator.org> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> some of you might know, that we'll migrate vimperator.org away from trac
> to google sites. The reason is, that Daniel doesn't have a need for his
> dedicated web hosting in future. I can fully understand that, and want
> to say thank you to him for serving vimperator.org about a year now!
>
> He gave me the advice to use google sites, which seems *really* easy
> to setup nice looking homepage:
>
> http://sites.google.com/a/vimperator.org/test/home
>
> (far from ready, and themes can be changed with a mouse click, so no
> need to complain about that).
>
> However, the homepage is not the only thing which needs to be moved.
> We also need to move the git repository and the bug tracker.
>
> Ideas:
>
> 1.) Google code: SVN, maybe mercurial, very nice bug tracker
> 2.) github or gitorious: Git but no integrated bug tracker
> 3.) Move back to mozdev.org: I think they support mercurial now,
> ? ?but last time, they bug tracker sucked a little.
> ? ?On the other hand vimperator at mozdev.org's mailing list adress
> ? ?would fit better again :)
> 4.) Your suggestesions...
>
> Do you have some good suggestions how to move vimperator.org?
>
> And it's not about cost, it's about:
> a) Ease of transistion: I don't have much time for maintainance work,
> ? nor for writing much PHP, etc. code myself.
> b) While I appreciate anybody who wants to help hosting, things
> ? change so quickly, and it's better to rely on sites where i can
> ? be sure, vimperator.org will be present in 5 years time as well.
>
> best regards,
>
> Martin
>
> PS: Daniel's contract is until end of October, we should try to finalize
> the move until the beginning of October.
>
> PPS: It really sucks that I am not sure, if we can integrate the
> existing tickets :( One more reason for the need of a "big" hoster,
> where we won't have to move the tickets yet another time in future.

I know sourceforge isn't a popular choice these days but they now have
git and trac support, so the transition there would probably be the
most seamless.

--
eric

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 08:55:03 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:55:03 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <afa9caf10909110851u6d92b66cy938a82212ff84f1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
	<afa9caf10909110851u6d92b66cy938a82212ff84f1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090911155503.GB24353@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 08:51:19AM -0700, Eric Van Dewoestine wrote:
>I know sourceforge isn't a popular choice these days but they now have
>git and trac support, so the transition there would probably be the
>most seamless.

Sourceforge isn't very popular because it's god awful. 
Especially with its new ajaxification. Plus, we've been looking 
to get rid of Trac since we started using it. As far as I'm 
concerned, Google's issue tracker is about as good as they get.

-- 
Kris Maglione

And the users exclaimed with a laugh and a taunt: "It's just what we
asked for but not what we want."


From ervandew at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 09:04:12 2009
From: ervandew at gmail.com (Eric Van Dewoestine)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 09:04:12 -0700
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <20090911155503.GB24353@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
	<afa9caf10909110851u6d92b66cy938a82212ff84f1@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090911155503.GB24353@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <afa9caf10909110904n55bfa72bp66780fb1a9fdec24@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 8:55 AM, Kris Maglione <maglione.k at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 08:51:19AM -0700, Eric Van Dewoestine wrote:
>>
>> I know sourceforge isn't a popular choice these days but they now have
>> git and trac support, so the transition there would probably be the
>> most seamless.
>
> Sourceforge isn't very popular because it's god awful. Especially with its
> new ajaxification. Plus, we've been looking to get rid of Trac since we
> started using it. As far as I'm concerned, Google's issue tracker is about
> as good as they get.

For the most part you can avoid their actual site altogether, but if
you guys are looking to dump trac then I'd suggest just moving to
github.  As someone who uses both mercurial and git on a daily basis,
I can't imagine switching from git to mercurial.

--
eric

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 09:10:20 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 12:10:20 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <afa9caf10909110904n55bfa72bp66780fb1a9fdec24@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
	<afa9caf10909110851u6d92b66cy938a82212ff84f1@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090911155503.GB24353@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<afa9caf10909110904n55bfa72bp66780fb1a9fdec24@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090911161020.GA19705@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 09:04:12AM -0700, Eric Van Dewoestine wrote:
>As someone who uses both mercurial and git on a daily basis,
>I can't imagine switching from git to mercurial.

I use them both on a daily basis and I have no problem with 
switching.

-- 
Kris Maglione

Beware of "the real world".  A speaker's appeal to it is always an
invitation not to challenge his tacit assumptions.
	--Edsger W. Dijkstra


From rogutes at googlemail.com  Fri Sep 11 10:04:32 2009
From: rogutes at googlemail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Rogut=C4=97s?= Sparnuotos)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 20:04:32 +0300
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090911170432.GA7997@urvas>

Martin Stubenschrott (2009-09-11 16:48):
> Hi all,
> 
> some of you might know, that we'll migrate vimperator.org away from trac
> to google sites. The reason is, that Daniel doesn't have a need for his
> dedicated web hosting in future. I can fully understand that, and want
> to say thank you to him for serving vimperator.org about a year now!
> 
> He gave me the advice to use google sites, which seems *really* easy
> to setup nice looking homepage:
> 
> http://sites.google.com/a/vimperator.org/test/home
> <...>

At first, I wanted to warn you against using Google Sites based on my
personal experience, but now I think that the annoyances I've
encountered are probably not that important for vimperator.org, as they
were for a personal website*.

And, more importantly, the biggest problem was the inability to
delete/manage attachments, which seems to be fixed now!

* What annoyed me most was the static footer, restricted themeing,
  impossibility to set a global font size, difficulties managing
  uploaded images..

-- 
--  Rogut?s Sparnuotos

From xwraithanx at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 11:01:53 2009
From: xwraithanx at gmail.com (Chris McDonald)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:01:53 -0700
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <9a20967a0909110801u5bc15c45v997055bc65bcae8c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
	<9a20967a0909110801u5bc15c45v997055bc65bcae8c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7822ca0d0909111101i21cf3d46pae809dd5b511ae58@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 8:01 AM, rupa <rupa at lrrr.us> wrote:
> github does have an issue tracker. Maybe not robust enough for your needs,
> but people can open issues, and they can be closed directly from commits.

I only have small projects on github and I find the issue tracker to
be too lacking for my needs, let alone the needs of a larger project
like this one. I am a big fan of git and github with regard to
everything except for their issue tracker which in my opinion is near
useless, burdensome to tag and organize. It can use votes to get the
highest priority issues for the community pushed to the top, but in
order to get traditional feature request/minor bug/major bug you have
to use their tag system, which sucks.

Just my 0.02

From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Fri Sep 11 12:18:53 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 21:18:53 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <20090911170432.GA7997@urvas>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org> <20090911170432.GA7997@urvas>
Message-ID: <4AAAA29D.6070901@vimperator.org>

On 09/11/2009 07:04 PM, Rogut?s Sparnuotos wrote:

> At first, I wanted to warn you against using Google Sites based on my
> personal experience, but now I think that the annoyances I've
> encountered are probably not that important for vimperator.org, as they
> were for a personal website*.


the only quite annoying problem is, that custom html tags are quite restrictive.

even "background-image" css property is not supported on tables,
so i'll have to think about how to redo certain parts of the
homepage like the "download" button. It seems, most of these
annoyances can be fixed with custom google gadgets.

Does anybody know another web hoster which offers webspace for
free with an easy to use web frontend to administer your site?

--
Martin

From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Fri Sep 11 12:25:57 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 21:25:57 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <20090911154858.GA24353@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
	<20090911154858.GA24353@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <4AAAA445.7060602@vimperator.org>

On 09/11/2009 05:48 PM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 04:48:59PM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>>1.) Google code: SVN, maybe mercurial, very nice bug tracker
> 
> If you switch to SVN, I'm leaving.

Understandable, and SVN really needs to be avoided, we'll have
to look into mercurial support, if it's still invite-only
or public.

>>2.) github or gitorious: Git but no integrated bug tracker
> 
> It's probably not a great idea to switch VCS again.

I don't get your point. github would still use git, just like now.
So why would that involve switching VCS?

>>3.) Move back to mozdev.org: I think they support mercurial now,
>>    but last time, they bug tracker sucked a little.
>>    On the other hand vimperator at mozdev.org's mailing list adress
>>    would fit better again :)
> 
> Mozdev is a bit of a mess. Let's just move the list to Google 
> Groups.

Yeah, mozdev sucks although for the mailing list it works quite
well (giving me a good interface to dismiss spam from unsubscribed
senders).

>>4.) Your suggestesions...
> 
> You might have a look at sharesource.


Interesting, homepage looks fast and responsive, which is important
to me. Will have to take a closer look. Thanks.

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Fri Sep 11 12:33:42 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:33:42 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4AAAA445.7060602@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
	<20090911154858.GA24353@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AAAA445.7060602@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090911193342.GA12644@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 09:25:57PM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>>>2.) github or gitorious: Git but no integrated bug tracker
>> 
>> It's probably not a great idea to switch VCS again.
>
>I don't get your point. github would still use git, just like now.
>So why would that involve switching VCS?

It wouldn't. That's my point. I wouldn't mind switching to hg, 
but I think the ability to stick with git is an important factor 
to consider.

-- 
Kris Maglione

Programming X Windows is like trying to find the square root of Pi
using roman numerals.
	--Henry Spencer


From giorgiobet at yahoo.it  Sat Sep 12 02:59:39 2009
From: giorgiobet at yahoo.it (Giorgio Bettineschi)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 11:59:39 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] vimperator - url bar
Message-ID: <4AAB710B.7020502@yahoo.it>

Hello,
I have a problem with vimperator I can't find in any forum:
the bar which should show me the url of the page is always white, but 
the url is written in white letters too, so that I can't read anything 
unless I select it with the mouse. You can see what I mean in the 
pictures I attach to the mail.

Thank you for help, and thank you for vimperator!
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From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Sat Sep 12 09:00:14 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 18:00:14 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] vimperator - url bar
In-Reply-To: <4AAB710B.7020502@yahoo.it>
References: <4AAB710B.7020502@yahoo.it>
Message-ID: <4AABC58E.8090809@vimperator.org>

On 09/12/2009 11:59 AM, Giorgio Bettineschi wrote:

> Hello,
> I have a problem with vimperator I can't find in any forum:
> the bar which should show me the url of the page is always white, but 
> the url is written in white letters too, so that I can't read anything 
> unless I select it with the mouse. You can see what I mean in the 
> pictures I attach to the mail.


Use a different theme, I am quite sure, your custom theme causes this problem.
Otherwise, you can try with :help :highlight to override the colors.

From rz at linux-m68k.org  Sat Sep 12 13:10:27 2009
From: rz at linux-m68k.org (Richard Zidlicky)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 22:10:27 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Adding Bookmarklet Code to the RC File
In-Reply-To: <20090910011408.GA22471@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <40c11efc0908301646s70a4fb74u50c6fcadeeb1c05d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831000200.GA16505@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<40c11efc0908301732t35deb547vc1996bc37e0e54ac@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090909093932.GA5251@linux-m68k.org>
	<20090910011408.GA22471@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <20090912201027.GA7611@linux-m68k.org>

On Wed, Sep 09, 2009 at 09:14:08PM -0400, Kris Maglione wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 09, 2009 at 11:39:32AM +0200, Richard Zidlicky wrote:
>> I think that the use of bookmarklets in Vimperator would be a good 
>> candidate for the FAQ, it is one of the more obvious things to do with 
>> vimperator.
>>
>> When mapping them to keys you want to:
>> - replace all character quotations (%20,%22 etc..) with the respective characters
>> - prefix everything that acesses documents structures with a "content."
>> - wrap them in a function
>> - map the function
>
> That's absurdly overcomplicated. There's no great reason to do anything 
> other than:
>
> 	:open <bookmarklet_code>

fine for trivial bookmarklets, the longer one will keep scrolling forever. Try this
with eg

   javascript:(function(){function%20getRGBColor(node,prop){var%20rgb=getComputedStyle(node,null).getPropertyValue(prop);var%20r,g,b;if(/rgb\((\d+),\s(\d+),\s(\d+)\)/.exec(rgb)){r=parseInt(RegExp.$1,10);g=parseInt(RegExp.$2,10);b=parseInt(RegExp.$3,10);return[r/255,g/255,b/255];}return%20rgb;}%20R(document.documentElement);%20function%20R(n){var%20i,x,color;if(n.nodeType==Node.ELEMENT_NODE%20&&%20n.tagName.toLowerCase()!=%22input%22%20&&%20n.tagName.toLowerCase()!=%22select%22%20&&%20n.tagName.toLowerCase!=%22textarea%22){for(i=0;x=n.childNodes[i];++i)R(x);%20color=getRGBColor(n,%22background-color%22);if(typeof(color)!=%22string%22){if%20(color[0]%20+%20color[1]%20+%20color[2]%20>=%202.8)%20{%20n.style.backgroundColor%20=%20%22#FFD3A7%22;/*Moz%201.0*/%20n.style.setProperty(%22background-color%22,%20%22#FFD3A7%22,%20%22important%22);/*Moz%201.4%20after%20zap%20colors*/%20}%20}}}})()

Richard

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Sat Sep 12 15:01:56 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 18:01:56 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Adding Bookmarklet Code to the RC File
In-Reply-To: <20090912201027.GA7611@linux-m68k.org>
References: <40c11efc0908301646s70a4fb74u50c6fcadeeb1c05d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090831000200.GA16505@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<40c11efc0908301732t35deb547vc1996bc37e0e54ac@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090909093932.GA5251@linux-m68k.org>
	<20090910011408.GA22471@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<20090912201027.GA7611@linux-m68k.org>
Message-ID: <20090912220156.GA28640@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 10:10:27PM +0200, Richard Zidlicky wrote:
>fine for trivial bookmarklets, the longer one will keep scrolling forever.

You don't exactly have to look at them. Just use :com or :map 
<silent> or :bmark -keyword, or ...

-- 
Kris Maglione

Get and set methods are evil.
	--Allen Holub


From ted at tedpavlic.com  Mon Sep 14 10:12:40 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 13:12:40 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] :tabdetatch vs. "Open in a New Window"
Message-ID: <4AAE7988.1080906@tedpavlic.com>

Today I noticed that :tabdetatch and "Open in a New Window" (which is a 
FF tab context menu item) operate in slightly different ways. Should they?

In particular, I opened a Google Chat window with someone and then 
select to "pop out". That caused the AJAX chat window to open a new tab.

*) At that point, I tried doing a ":tabdetatch". That caused the new 
window to open, but after GMail went through its "loading" sequence, I 
was given a notice that the chat window could not be opened and I should 
reload (which didn't help).

*) However, doing everything exactly the same but using "Open in a New 
Window" (via right click on tab) causes Google Mail to load the chat 
window properly.

Is this a defect in :tabdetatch? Or are they meant to be different?

(I also haven't pulled down a new Vimperator in a while, and so it's 
possible that this bug has been fixed)

--Ted

-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

   Please visit my 2009 d'Feet ALS walk page:
         http://web.alsa.org/goto/tedp
   My family appreciates your support in the fight to defeat ALS.

From stepnem at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 11:52:14 2009
From: stepnem at gmail.com (=?utf-8?B?PT9VVEYtOD9xPz1DNT1BMHQ9QzQ9OUJwPUMzPUExbj0yME49QzQ9OUJt?= =?utf-8?Q?ec=3F=3D?=)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 20:52:14 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] [PATCH -- TRIVIAL] Fix a typo in f3047a0f.
Message-ID: <20090914185214.GA23495@headley>

---
 vimperator/locale/en-US/hints.txt |    2 +-
 1 files changed, 1 insertions(+), 1 deletions(-)

diff --git a/vimperator/locale/en-US/hints.txt b/vimperator/locale/en-US/hints.txt
index 092227b..0c41619 100644
--- a/vimperator/locale/en-US/hints.txt
+++ b/vimperator/locale/en-US/hints.txt
@@ -67,7 +67,7 @@ hint mode. Then press [a]24[a] to copy the hint location.
 * |;I| [m]I[m] to open an image in a new tab.
 
 Depending on the value of 'complete', you can get a list of extended hint
-modes by pressing [m]<Tab>[m] from the [m];[,] prompt.
+modes by pressing [m]<Tab>[m] from the [m];[m] prompt.
 
 Hintable elements for all extended hint modes can be set in the
 'extendedhinttags' XPath string.
-- 
1.6.4.114.gefd1


From maglione.k at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 12:31:44 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 15:31:44 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] [PATCH -- TRIVIAL] Fix a typo in f3047a0f.
In-Reply-To: <20090914185214.GA23495@headley>
References: <20090914185214.GA23495@headley>
Message-ID: <20090914193144.GA13239@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

Danke.

-- 
Kris Maglione

Complexity kills.  It sucks the life out of developers, it makes
products difficult to plan, build and test, it introduces security
challenges and it causes end-user and administrator frustration.
	--Ray Ozzie


From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Mon Sep 14 13:43:17 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 22:43:17 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] [PATCH -- TRIVIAL] Fix a typo in f3047a0f.
In-Reply-To: <20090914193144.GA13239@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <20090914185214.GA23495@headley>
	<20090914193144.GA13239@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <4AAEAAE5.2040800@vimperator.org>

On 09/14/2009 09:31 PM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> Danke.


Are you learning german, or is this just one of a few words you know in German? :)

--
Martin

From ted at tedpavlic.com  Mon Sep 14 13:58:10 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 16:58:10 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] No more nightlies?
Message-ID: <4AAEAE62.9010703@tedpavlic.com>

It looks like the last "nightly" on the website was generated on August 
22. Does that mean nightlies are over?

--Ted

-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

   Please visit my 2009 d'Feet ALS walk page:
         http://web.alsa.org/goto/tedp
   My family appreciates your support in the fight to defeat ALS.

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 13:52:25 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 16:52:25 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] [PATCH -- TRIVIAL] Fix a typo in f3047a0f.
In-Reply-To: <4AAEAAE5.2040800@vimperator.org>
References: <20090914185214.GA23495@headley>
	<20090914193144.GA13239@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AAEAAE5.2040800@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090914205225.GA1405@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 10:43:17PM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>On 09/14/2009 09:31 PM, Kris Maglione wrote:
>> Danke.
>
>Are you learning german, or is this just one of a few words you know in German? :)

Don't be silly, English is a solidly germanic language. At any 
rate, "danke" is one of the foreign words fairly universally 
understood and often interjected in the US, along with 
"gratzie", "buenos dias", "hola", etc. Aside from that, I only 
know the words of German foods (and of course beers), because 
Germany is one of those few nations with any taste in food.

-- 
Kris Maglione

You can get into a habit of thought in which you enjoy making fun of
all those other people who don?t see things as clearly as you do.  We
have to guard carefully against it.
	--Carl Sagan


From markjreed at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 14:34:04 2009
From: markjreed at gmail.com (Mark J. Reed)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 17:34:04 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] [PATCH -- TRIVIAL] Fix a typo in f3047a0f.
In-Reply-To: <20090914205225.GA1405@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <20090914185214.GA23495@headley>
	<20090914193144.GA13239@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AAEAAE5.2040800@vimperator.org>
	<20090914205225.GA1405@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <f60fe000909141434n2d3abdecs75f30d234eb919a0@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Kris Maglione <maglione.k at gmail.com> wrote:
> Don't be silly, English is a solidly germanic language.

Albeit with a large Romance influence via Norman French...

> At any rate, "danke" is one of the foreign words fairly universally
> understood and often interjected in the US

No doubt due in some part to the popularity of the song "Danke Schoen"
some years back.

> along with "gratzie"

Small correction: there's no 't' in 'grazie'.  The t-sound comes free
with the letter 'z' in Italian, as in "pizza". :)

-- 
Mark J. Reed <markjreed at gmail.com>

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Mon Sep 14 17:15:53 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 20:15:53 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] [PATCH -- TRIVIAL] Fix a typo in f3047a0f.
In-Reply-To: <f60fe000909141434n2d3abdecs75f30d234eb919a0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090914185214.GA23495@headley>
	<20090914193144.GA13239@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AAEAAE5.2040800@vimperator.org>
	<20090914205225.GA1405@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<f60fe000909141434n2d3abdecs75f30d234eb919a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090915001553.GA20244@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 05:34:04PM -0400, Mark J. Reed wrote:
>> Don't be silly, English is a solidly germanic language.
>
>Albeit with a large Romance influence via Norman French...

Sure, but that was more a contribution of vocabulary than 
syntax.

>> At any rate, "danke" is one of the foreign words fairly universally
>> understood and often interjected in the US
>
>No doubt due in some part to the popularity of the song "Danke Schoen"
>some years back.

I would agree, except that the crowd that listened to that song 
say "dankeschoen" rather than "danke". It tends to be more 
popular with a younger crowd.

>> along with "gratzie"
>
>Small correction: there's no 't' in 'grazie'.  The t-sound comes free
>with the letter 'z' in Italian, as in "pizza". :)

True, I suppose, but it's not something I ever write. And my 
family never pronounces the "ie", so my spelling usually varies 
between gratz and graz (the latter of which causes confusion).

-- 
Kris Maglione

Real Programmers don't believe in schedules.  Planners make up
schedules.  Managers "firm up" schedules.  Frightened coders strive to
meet schedules.  Real Programmers ignore schedules.


From dpb at driftaway.org  Mon Sep 14 22:55:43 2009
From: dpb at driftaway.org (Daniel Bainton)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 08:55:43 +0300
Subject: [Vimperator] No more nightlies?
In-Reply-To: <4AAEAE62.9010703@tedpavlic.com>
References: <4AAEAE62.9010703@tedpavlic.com>
Message-ID: <dd9711230909142255o22ccd7ffx25ff71f9430313b2@mail.gmail.com>

2009/9/14 Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>:
> It looks like the last "nightly" on the website was generated on August 22.
> Does that mean nightlies are over?

Atleast they are over at the current host (unless someone makes
Vimperator build with asciidoc 8.2), as the host will disappear in 1.5
months anyway, I can't be bothered with backporting asciidoc 8.4 to
Debian Stable for it.

I don't know if they will exist somewhere else in the future.

--
Daniel

From nemolivier at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 03:57:07 2009
From: nemolivier at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Olivier_Gu=E9ry?=)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 12:57:07 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] No more nightlies?
In-Reply-To: <dd9711230909142255o22ccd7ffx25ff71f9430313b2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AAEAE62.9010703@tedpavlic.com>
	<dd9711230909142255o22ccd7ffx25ff71f9430313b2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5c2c86e70909150357l52eeeac6p65d24d0f979c269b@mail.gmail.com>

2009/9/15 Daniel Bainton <dpb at driftaway.org>:
> 2009/9/14 Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>:
>> It looks like the last "nightly" on the website was generated on August 22.
>> Does that mean nightlies are over?

You can sync from git and put a file named ??vimperator at mozdev.org??
in your $HOME/.mozilla/firefox/YOUR_PROFILE/extensions/ containing :

/ROOT_TO_THE_LOCAL_GIT_FOLDER/vimperator

If you don?t compile the doc, you won?t get it.

Olivier.

>
> Atleast they are over at the current host (unless someone makes
> Vimperator build with asciidoc 8.2), as the host will disappear in 1.5
> months anyway, I can't be bothered with backporting asciidoc 8.4 to
> Debian Stable for it.
>
> I don't know if they will exist somewhere else in the future.
>
> --
> Daniel
> _______________________________________________
> Vimperator mailing list
> Vimperator at mozdev.org
> https://www.mozdev.org/mailman/listinfo/vimperator
>



-- 
[Message tap? sur un clavier B?po : http://www.bepo.fr ]
http://soubresauts.net

From ted at tedpavlic.com  Tue Sep 15 06:29:47 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:29:47 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] No more nightlies?
In-Reply-To: <5c2c86e70909150357l52eeeac6p65d24d0f979c269b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AAEAE62.9010703@tedpavlic.com>
	<dd9711230909142255o22ccd7ffx25ff71f9430313b2@mail.gmail.com>
	<5c2c86e70909150357l52eeeac6p65d24d0f979c269b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AAF96CB.8030100@tedpavlic.com>

> You can sync from git and put a file named ? vimperator at mozdev.org ?
> in your $HOME/.mozilla/firefox/YOUR_PROFILE/extensions/ containing :

I'm well aware. That wasn't my question at all. But thanks.

-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

   Please visit my 2009 d'Feet ALS walk page:
         http://web.alsa.org/goto/tedp
   My family appreciates your support in the fight to defeat ALS.

From nemolivier at gmail.com  Tue Sep 15 06:49:45 2009
From: nemolivier at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Olivier_Gu=E9ry?=)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 15:49:45 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] No more nightlies?
In-Reply-To: <4AAF96CB.8030100@tedpavlic.com>
References: <4AAEAE62.9010703@tedpavlic.com>
	<dd9711230909142255o22ccd7ffx25ff71f9430313b2@mail.gmail.com>
	<5c2c86e70909150357l52eeeac6p65d24d0f979c269b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AAF96CB.8030100@tedpavlic.com>
Message-ID: <5c2c86e70909150649v41604c04j733330927d13ea96@mail.gmail.com>

Hu, Hu... Did't see who asked the question ! Sorry ;o)

2009/9/15, Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>:
>> You can sync from git and put a file named ? vimperator at mozdev.org ?
>> in your $HOME/.mozilla/firefox/YOUR_PROFILE/extensions/ containing :
>
> I'm well aware. That wasn't my question at all. But thanks.
>
> --
> Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>
>
>    Please visit my 2009 d'Feet ALS walk page:
>          http://web.alsa.org/goto/tedp
>    My family appreciates your support in the fight to defeat ALS.
> _______________________________________________
> Vimperator mailing list
> Vimperator at mozdev.org
> https://www.mozdev.org/mailman/listinfo/vimperator
>

-- 
Envoy? avec mon mobile

[Message tap? sur un clavier B?po : http://www.bepo.fr ]
http://soubresauts.net

From ted at tedpavlic.com  Tue Sep 15 07:16:25 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 10:16:25 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] :tabdetatch doesn't populate opener (Re: :tabdetatch
 vs. "Open in a New Window")
In-Reply-To: <4AAE7988.1080906@tedpavlic.com>
References: <4AAE7988.1080906@tedpavlic.com>
Message-ID: <4AAFA1B9.1040106@tedpavlic.com>

It appears like :tabdetatch isn't populating opener. Here's a simple 
example:

http://www.tedpavlic.com/examples/vimperator/badtabdetatch/

the window that pops out shows you its opener. If you "Open in a New 
Window" from the tab's context menu, the opener is maintained. If you 
:tabdetatch, it is lost.

--Ted

On 9/14/09 1:12 PM, Ted Pavlic wrote:
>
> Today I noticed that :tabdetatch and "Open in a New Window" (which is a
> FF tab context menu item) operate in slightly different ways. Should they?
>
> In particular, I opened a Google Chat window with someone and then
> select to "pop out". That caused the AJAX chat window to open a new tab.
>
> *) At that point, I tried doing a ":tabdetatch". That caused the new
> window to open, but after GMail went through its "loading" sequence, I
> was given a notice that the chat window could not be opened and I should
> reload (which didn't help).
>
> *) However, doing everything exactly the same but using "Open in a New
> Window" (via right click on tab) causes Google Mail to load the chat
> window properly.
>
> Is this a defect in :tabdetatch? Or are they meant to be different?
>
> (I also haven't pulled down a new Vimperator in a while, and so it's
> possible that this bug has been fixed)
>
> --Ted
>

-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

   Please visit my 2009 d'Feet ALS walk page:
         http://web.alsa.org/goto/tedp
   My family appreciates your support in the fight to defeat ALS.

From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Tue Sep 15 07:23:15 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 16:23:15 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] :tabdetatch doesn't populate opener (Re:
 :tabdetatch vs. "Open in a New Window")
In-Reply-To: <4AAFA1B9.1040106@tedpavlic.com>
References: <4AAE7988.1080906@tedpavlic.com> <4AAFA1B9.1040106@tedpavlic.com>
Message-ID: <4AAFA353.2080605@vimperator.org>

On 09/15/2009 04:16 PM, Ted Pavlic wrote:

> It appears like :tabdetatch isn't populating opener. Here's a simple 
> example:
> 
> http://www.tedpavlic.com/examples/vimperator/badtabdetatch/
> 
> the window that pops out shows you its opener. If you "Open in a New 
> Window" from the tab's context menu, the opener is maintained. If you 
> :tabdetatch, it is lost.


Strange, if I use "open in a new window" i get the new window without
any popup. If I use :tabdetach I do get Firefox's popup blocker warning.

But I agree the two behave differently (which they shouldn't).

Do you also have a solution how to fix it? (very little time for this
currently, I am really busy now, evaluating the strategies how to 
move vimperator.org to a new hoster and to which one actually).

--
Martin

From ted at tedpavlic.com  Tue Sep 15 08:38:51 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 11:38:51 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] :tabdetatch doesn't populate opener (Re:
 :tabdetatch vs. "Open in a New Window")
In-Reply-To: <4AAFA353.2080605@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAE7988.1080906@tedpavlic.com> <4AAFA1B9.1040106@tedpavlic.com>
	<4AAFA353.2080605@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <4AAFB50B.7040807@tedpavlic.com>

> Do you also have a solution how to fix it? (very little time for this
> currently, I am really busy now, evaluating the strategies how to
> move vimperator.org to a new hoster and to which one actually).

I don't know much about Mozilla's tab handler. I did try adding 
something (to detachTab()) like...


let tabwindow = gBrowser.getBrowserForTab(tab).contentWindow;

if (tabwindow.opener)
	win.getBrowser().contentWindow.opener = tabwindow.opener;


that fixed the opener problem, but it didn't completely fix Google Chat. 
gChat didn't give the error. Instead, it reached the end of its 
"loading" sequence and just stopped; it was as if it was waiting for 
something to load that never did. So something (other than just opener) 
isn't being preserved by :tabde.

Now that Firefox supports tab detaching natively, it seems like there 
should be some way to have it do it for you, but I don't know where to 
look to find how to do that.

--Ted


-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

   Please visit my 2009 d'Feet ALS walk page:
         http://web.alsa.org/goto/tedp
   My family appreciates your support in the fight to defeat ALS.

From ted at tedpavlic.com  Tue Sep 15 08:49:06 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 11:49:06 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] :tabdetach doesn't populate opener (Re:
 :tabdetatch vs. "Open in a New Window")
In-Reply-To: <4AAFB50B.7040807@tedpavlic.com>
References: <4AAE7988.1080906@tedpavlic.com> <4AAFA1B9.1040106@tedpavlic.com>
	<4AAFA353.2080605@vimperator.org> <4AAFB50B.7040807@tedpavlic.com>
Message-ID: <4AAFB772.4000402@tedpavlic.com>

I found this extension:

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/12689/

which allows a tab to be "undetached". It seems to use a "moveTabTo" 
method. I've never heard of it, but maybe it's what should be used.

--Ted

On 9/15/09 11:38 AM, Ted Pavlic wrote:
>
>> Do you also have a solution how to fix it? (very little time for this
>> currently, I am really busy now, evaluating the strategies how to
>> move vimperator.org to a new hoster and to which one actually).
>
> I don't know much about Mozilla's tab handler. I did try adding
> something (to detachTab()) like...
>
>
> let tabwindow = gBrowser.getBrowserForTab(tab).contentWindow;
>
> if (tabwindow.opener)
> 	win.getBrowser().contentWindow.opener = tabwindow.opener;
>
>
> that fixed the opener problem, but it didn't completely fix Google Chat.
> gChat didn't give the error. Instead, it reached the end of its
> "loading" sequence and just stopped; it was as if it was waiting for
> something to load that never did. So something (other than just opener)
> isn't being preserved by :tabde.
>
> Now that Firefox supports tab detaching natively, it seems like there
> should be some way to have it do it for you, but I don't know where to
> look to find how to do that.
>
> --Ted
>
>

-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

   Please visit my 2009 d'Feet ALS walk page:
         http://web.alsa.org/goto/tedp
   My family appreciates your support in the fight to defeat ALS.

From ted at tedpavlic.com  Tue Sep 15 09:53:18 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 12:53:18 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] :tabdetach doesn't populate opener (Re:
 :tabdetatch vs. "Open in a New Window")
In-Reply-To: <4AAFB772.4000402@tedpavlic.com>
References: <4AAE7988.1080906@tedpavlic.com> <4AAFA1B9.1040106@tedpavlic.com>
	<4AAFA353.2080605@vimperator.org> <4AAFB50B.7040807@tedpavlic.com>
	<4AAFB772.4000402@tedpavlic.com>
Message-ID: <4AAFC67E.90605@tedpavlic.com>

Found an MDC method that is used to replace a tab with a window. I 
changed implementation of "detachTab" to use it, and things seem to work 
well now.

See commit 78745db5750c04d2a6c26f5fc4e28a5bc042466e

http://vimperator.org/trac/gitweb/?p=liberator.git;a=commit;h=78745db5750c04d2a6c26f5fc4e28a5bc042466e

--Ted

On 9/15/09 11:49 AM, Ted Pavlic wrote:
>
> I found this extension:
>
> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/12689/
>
> which allows a tab to be "undetached". It seems to use a "moveTabTo"
> method. I've never heard of it, but maybe it's what should be used.
>
> --Ted
>
> On 9/15/09 11:38 AM, Ted Pavlic wrote:
>>
>>> Do you also have a solution how to fix it? (very little time for this
>>> currently, I am really busy now, evaluating the strategies how to
>>> move vimperator.org to a new hoster and to which one actually).
>>
>> I don't know much about Mozilla's tab handler. I did try adding
>> something (to detachTab()) like...
>>
>>
>> let tabwindow = gBrowser.getBrowserForTab(tab).contentWindow;
>>
>> if (tabwindow.opener)
>> 	win.getBrowser().contentWindow.opener = tabwindow.opener;
>>
>>
>> that fixed the opener problem, but it didn't completely fix Google Chat.
>> gChat didn't give the error. Instead, it reached the end of its
>> "loading" sequence and just stopped; it was as if it was waiting for
>> something to load that never did. So something (other than just opener)
>> isn't being preserved by :tabde.
>>
>> Now that Firefox supports tab detaching natively, it seems like there
>> should be some way to have it do it for you, but I don't know where to
>> look to find how to do that.
>>
>> --Ted
>>
>>
>

-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

   Please visit my 2009 d'Feet ALS walk page:
         http://web.alsa.org/goto/tedp
   My family appreciates your support in the fight to defeat ALS.

From rz at linux-m68k.org  Wed Sep 16 03:24:01 2009
From: rz at linux-m68k.org (Richard Zidlicky)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 12:24:01 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] External editor & full screen view problem
Message-ID: <20090916102401.GA10081@linux-m68k.org>


Hello,

with Firefox 3.0.x whenever I invoke an external editor while Firefox is in full screen 
mode (F11) the external editor appears underneath the Firefox window. This is with 
Fedora 10 and Compiz WM - and ironically I use Xemacs as external editor:)

Not sure if Vimperator can do anything to fix that? As a workaround, a message alerting
the user about this possibility whenever an external editor is spawned would help a lot.

Richard

From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Wed Sep 16 14:51:25 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 23:51:25 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] External editor & full screen view problem
In-Reply-To: <20090916102401.GA10081@linux-m68k.org>
References: <20090916102401.GA10081@linux-m68k.org>
Message-ID: <4AB15DDD.8000606@vimperator.org>

On 09/16/2009 12:24 PM, Richard Zidlicky wrote:

> with Firefox 3.0.x whenever I invoke an external editor while Firefox is in full screen 
> mode (F11) the external editor appears underneath the Firefox window. This is with 
> Fedora 10 and Compiz WM - and ironically I use Xemacs as external editor:)
> 
> Not sure if Vimperator can do anything to fix that? As a workaround, a message alerting
> the user about this possibility whenever an external editor is spawned would help a lot.


The same happens here with "awesome" as my WM and gvim as the editor. Can anybody try if
it works with standard metacity or kwin? Does it work on mac/windows?

I don't think we can workaround that, as we just launch an external program when
invoking the editor. Maybe it's a firefox or window manager issue? Does
"sleep 10s && gvim" from a terminal work, when you then put FF in fullscreen?

I am not fond of that warning message, as it would be a stupid message for people
where it works, and for the others it still does not say, how to to exit from that
dilemma (I had to focus another textfield first, before F11 worked to un-fullscreen
firefox).

--
Martin

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Wed Sep 16 17:14:38 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 20:14:38 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] External editor & full screen view problem
In-Reply-To: <20090916102401.GA10081@linux-m68k.org>
References: <20090916102401.GA10081@linux-m68k.org>
Message-ID: <20090917001438.GA1647@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 12:24:01PM +0200, Richard Zidlicky wrote:
>
>Hello,
>
>with Firefox 3.0.x whenever I invoke an external editor while Firefox is in full screen 
>mode (F11) the external editor appears underneath the Firefox window. This is with 
>Fedora 10 and Compiz WM - and ironically I use Xemacs as external editor:)
>
>Not sure if Vimperator can do anything to fix that? As a workaround, a message alerting
>the user about this possibility whenever an external editor is spawned would help a lot.

No, Vimperator can't do anything about it except exit fullscreen 
mode. It's your window manager's job to decide what to do in 
that circumstance. Since my window manager handles the situation 
more gracefully, I'm loth to change Vimperator's behavior.

-- 
Kris Maglione

An organisation that treats its programmers as morons will soon have
programmers that are willing and able to act like morons only.
	--Bjarne Stroustrup


From ted at tedpavlic.com  Wed Sep 16 20:00:08 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 23:00:08 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] External editor & full screen view problem
In-Reply-To: <4AB15DDD.8000606@vimperator.org>
References: <20090916102401.GA10081@linux-m68k.org>
	<4AB15DDD.8000606@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <4AB1A638.4090906@tedpavlic.com>

> The same happens here with "awesome" as my WM and gvim as the editor. Can anybody try if
> it works with standard metacity or kwin? Does it work on mac/windows?

It works fine on both Mac and Windows.

(note: unlike MacVim, full screen mode in Vimperator on Mac OS X just 
maximizes the window -- it doesn't actually enter full screen mode)

--Ted


-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

   Please visit my 2009 d'Feet ALS walk page:
         http://web.alsa.org/goto/tedp
   My family appreciates your support in the fight to defeat ALS.

From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Thu Sep 17 03:40:30 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:40:30 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] External editor & full screen view problem
In-Reply-To: <20090917001438.GA1647@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <20090916102401.GA10081@linux-m68k.org>
	<20090917001438.GA1647@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <4AB2121E.7030101@vimperator.org>

On 09/17/2009 02:14 AM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> No, Vimperator can't do anything about it except exit fullscreen 
> mode. It's your window manager's job to decide what to do in 
> that circumstance. Since my window manager handles the situation 
> more gracefully, I'm loth to change Vimperator's behavior.


<offtopic>
One more reason, to try wmii again - especially since I saw that it
even has Xft support now :)

You also tagged 3.9a1, is there a snapshot of that
version somewhere or is it just internal, and i need to grab
the hg sources and hope to have all dependencies?
</offtopic>

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 05:10:51 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 08:10:51 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] External editor & full screen view problem
In-Reply-To: <4AB2121E.7030101@vimperator.org>
References: <20090916102401.GA10081@linux-m68k.org>
	<20090917001438.GA1647@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2121E.7030101@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090917121051.GA19681@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 12:40:30PM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
><offtopic>
>One more reason, to try wmii again - especially since I saw that it
>even has Xft support now :)
>
>You also tagged 3.9a1, is there a snapshot of that
>version somewhere or is it just internal, and i need to grab
>the hg sources and hope to have all dependencies?
></offtopic>

There's a tarball of 3.9a1 at wmii.suckless.org. The only 
dependencies are the standard X libs and Xft. Python is 
optional, but recommended. Everything else is included.

-- 
Kris Maglione

Amateur programmers think there are 1000 bytes in a kilobyte; Real
Programmers think there are 1024 meters in a kilometer.


From nemolivier at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 05:14:48 2009
From: nemolivier at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Olivier_Gu=E9ry?=)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 14:14:48 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] External editor & full screen view problem
In-Reply-To: <20090917121051.GA19681@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <20090916102401.GA10081@linux-m68k.org>
	<20090917001438.GA1647@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2121E.7030101@vimperator.org>
	<20090917121051.GA19681@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <5c2c86e70909170514l34bc87a4ha8124449cc18bd67@mail.gmail.com>

2009/9/17 Kris Maglione <maglione.k at gmail.com>:
> On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 12:40:30PM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>>
>> <offtopic>
>> One more reason, to try wmii again - especially since I saw that it
>> even has Xft support now :)
>>
>> You also tagged 3.9a1, is there a snapshot of that
>> version somewhere or is it just internal, and i need to grab
>> the hg sources and hope to have all dependencies?
>> </offtopic>
>
> There's a tarball of 3.9a1 at wmii.suckless.org. The only dependencies are
> the standard X libs and Xft. Python is optional, but recommended. Everything
> else is included.


I?ve tested here with awesome 3.4-rc1 and my gvim go behind when
firefox is in fullscreen (F11).

Olivier.

-- 
[Message tap? sur un clavier B?po : http://www.bepo.fr ]
http://soubresauts.net

From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Thu Sep 17 05:39:48 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 14:39:48 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] External editor & full screen view problem
In-Reply-To: <20090917121051.GA19681@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <20090916102401.GA10081@linux-m68k.org>	<20090917001438.GA1647@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>	<4AB2121E.7030101@vimperator.org>
	<20090917121051.GA19681@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <4AB22E14.9030008@vimperator.org>

On 09/17/2009 02:10 PM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> There's a tarball of 3.9a1 at wmii.suckless.org.

I looked there before, but the only link I could find was:

http://dl.suckless.org/wmii/wmii+ixp-snap20090703.tgz

which is >6 weeks old, when a (probably important?) Xft
related bug was fixed (something with transparency).

Now I was smarter, and looked directly at 
http://dl.suckless.org/wmii/
and found a more recent one, stupid me.

Thanks, will try that snap on the weekend.

--
Martin

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 07:15:01 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 10:15:01 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] External editor & full screen view problem
In-Reply-To: <4AB22E14.9030008@vimperator.org>
References: <20090916102401.GA10081@linux-m68k.org>
	<20090917001438.GA1647@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2121E.7030101@vimperator.org>
	<20090917121051.GA19681@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB22E14.9030008@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090917141238.GA28910@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 02:39:48PM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>I looked there before, but the only link I could find was:
>
>http://dl.suckless.org/wmii/wmii+ixp-snap20090703.tgz
>
>which is >6 weeks old, when a (probably important?) Xft
>related bug was fixed (something with transparency).

It wasn't a very important bug. There was some issue where Xft 
couldn't draw on the rgba bitmaps of windows that used alpha 
transparency. But since very few sane apps use alpha 
transparency, it only showed up for the one or two people who 
use Xft with transparent terminals.

As for the web page, it looks like someone clobbered my last 
commit. Ah, the tribulations of a hg-based wiki.

-- 
Kris Maglione

The more I learn, the more I realize what little I know.
	--Albert Einstein


From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Thu Sep 17 13:09:44 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 22:09:44 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org>

Hi,

I think I made my decision to lock myself into google even more :)

I just played with "google code" and really seems to fit our needs very
well:

* Fast (can't say that about github e.g.)
* Looks quite nice, at least better than github's issue tracker
* Mailing list support, which might make sense to migrate as well.
* Ability to create templates with labels. This is very important
to keep the possibility to have a "plugins" like functionality
which seems quite important IMHO.

E.g. on the vimperator.org homepage, i can easily create a link to:

Vimperator->"Add a new bug report"

which would just link to:

http://code.google.com/p/gkatsev/issues/entry?template=Vimperator%20Plugin

and has all labels set correctly to create a new plugin. And to view
them all:

http://code.google.com/p/gkatsev/issues/list?can=2&q=label%3Avimperator%20label%3Aplugin


The most annoying thing is, I am not sure, if there is a trac import plugin
somewhere. Google code does have an API, so an importer could be written
manually, but I am not a good web developer, so it'll probably take a few
full days to write that and wouldn't be sure if all permissions would be added
correctly anyway.

The other thing is, i think they require a single license for the project,
but the current multi-licensing sucks anyway.

What's the lists prefered license, and why?

GPL2? GPL3? MIT?

--
Martin

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 13:23:55 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 16:23:55 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org> <4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090917202355.GA29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 10:09:44PM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>The other thing is, i think they require a single license for the project,
>but the current multi-licensing sucks anyway.
>
>What's the lists prefered license, and why?
>
>GPL2? GPL3? MIT?

They don't, they just require that the project be licenced under 
an approved open source license. It can be licensed under more 
than one. Regardless, all of our code is available under GPL and 
LGPL v2 and v3, and MPL. All of my code is available under MIT.  
If you list it as any of the above licenses (except MIT), that's 
fully in line with their TOS. I really don't think we lose 
anything by multi-licensing anyway. I'd prefer MIT, as it's the 
least restrictive of the lot, but I suspect we'd legally need 
approval from all past contributers to that. If we choose LGPL, 
then it's automatically co-licensed under the GPL, so we're not 
changing much. I won't support licensing exclusively under the 
GPL or any other such viral license. That would require, among 
other things, that every plugin and every addon that uses 
liberator also be licensed under the GPL. The MPL is pretty 
much a joke.

-- 
Kris Maglione

And the users exclaimed with a laugh and a taunt: "It's just what we
asked for but not what we want."


From maglione.k at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 13:42:40 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 16:42:40 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] [PATCH] Make 'popups' more intuitive.
Message-ID: <20090917204240.GB29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

---
  common/content/tabs.js |   29 +++++++++++++++--------------
  1 files changed, 15 insertions(+), 14 deletions(-)

diff --git a/common/content/tabs.js b/common/content/tabs.js
index 22d9061..ff6e6a7 100644
--- a/common/content/tabs.js
+++ b/common/content/tabs.js
@@ -168,27 +168,28 @@ function Tabs() //{{{
          // TODO: Is this really applicable to Xulmus?
          options.add(["popups", "pps"],
              "Where to show requested popup windows",
-            "number", 1,
+            "stringlist", "tab",
              {
                  setter: function (value)
                  {
-                    let values = [[0, 1], // always in current tab
-                                  [0, 3], // in a new tab
-                                  [2, 3], // in a new window if it has specified sizes
-                                  [1, 2], // always in new window
-                                  [2, 1]];// current tab unless it has specified sizes
-
-                    options.safeSetPref("browser.link.open_newwindow.restriction", values[value][0]);
-                    options.safeSetPref("browser.link.open_newwindow", values[value][1]);
+                    for (let [, opt] in value)
+                    {
+                        let [open, restriction] = [1, 0];
+                        if (opt == "tab")
+                            open = 3;
+                        else if (opt == "window")
+                            open = 2;
+                        else if (opt == "resized")
+                            resized = 2;
+                    }
  
                      return value;
                  },
                  completer: function (context) [
-                    ["0", "Force to open in the current tab"],
-                    ["1", "Always open in a new tab"],
-                    ["2", "Open in a new window if it has a specific requested size (default in " + config.hostApplication + ")"],
-                    ["3", "Always open in a new window"],
-                    ["4", "Open in the same tab unless it has a specific requested size"]
+                    ["",        "Open all links in the current tab"],
+                    ["tab",     "Open popups in a new tab"],
+                    ["window",  "Open popups in a new window"],
+                    ["resized", "Open resized popups in a new window"]
                  ],
                  validator: Option.validateCompleter
              });
-- 
1.6.2.1


From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Thu Sep 17 15:10:35 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 00:10:35 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] [PATCH] Make 'popups' more intuitive.
In-Reply-To: <20090917204240.GB29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <20090917204240.GB29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <4AB2B3DB.5040803@vimperator.org>

I agree with the change, makes sense (without having it tested),
as integer only options for such things really, really sucks.

Please add that to the IMPORTANT section of the NEWS file though.

Thanks!

On 09/17/2009 10:42 PM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> ---
>   common/content/tabs.js |   29 +++++++++++++++--------------
>   1 files changed, 15 insertions(+), 14 deletions(-)
> 
> diff --git a/common/content/tabs.js b/common/content/tabs.js
> index 22d9061..ff6e6a7 100644
> --- a/common/content/tabs.js
> +++ b/common/content/tabs.js
> @@ -168,27 +168,28 @@ function Tabs() //{{{
>           // TODO: Is this really applicable to Xulmus?
>           options.add(["popups", "pps"],
>               "Where to show requested popup windows",
> -            "number", 1,
> +            "stringlist", "tab",
>               {
>                   setter: function (value)
>                   {
> -                    let values = [[0, 1], // always in current tab
> -                                  [0, 3], // in a new tab
> -                                  [2, 3], // in a new window if it has specified sizes
> -                                  [1, 2], // always in new window
> -                                  [2, 1]];// current tab unless it has specified sizes
> -
> -                    options.safeSetPref("browser.link.open_newwindow.restriction", values[value][0]);
> -                    options.safeSetPref("browser.link.open_newwindow", values[value][1]);
> +                    for (let [, opt] in value)
> +                    {
> +                        let [open, restriction] = [1, 0];
> +                        if (opt == "tab")
> +                            open = 3;
> +                        else if (opt == "window")
> +                            open = 2;
> +                        else if (opt == "resized")
> +                            resized = 2;
> +                    }
>   
>                       return value;
>                   },
>                   completer: function (context) [
> -                    ["0", "Force to open in the current tab"],
> -                    ["1", "Always open in a new tab"],
> -                    ["2", "Open in a new window if it has a specific requested size (default in " + config.hostApplication + ")"],
> -                    ["3", "Always open in a new window"],
> -                    ["4", "Open in the same tab unless it has a specific requested size"]
> +                    ["",        "Open all links in the current tab"],
> +                    ["tab",     "Open popups in a new tab"],
> +                    ["window",  "Open popups in a new window"],
> +                    ["resized", "Open resized popups in a new window"]
>                   ],
>                   validator: Option.validateCompleter
>               });



From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Thu Sep 17 15:17:55 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 00:17:55 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <20090917202355.GA29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org> <4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org>
	<20090917202355.GA29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <4AB2B593.8050404@vimperator.org>

On 09/17/2009 10:23 PM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> They don't, they just require that the project be licenced under 
> an approved open source license. It can be licensed under more 
> than one.


http://code.google.com/p/support/wiki/FAQ#Hosted_Tools says that:

Q: How can I choose two licenses for my dual-licensed project?
A: At this time, we offer single licenses only. 

> Regardless, all of our code is available under GPL and 
> LGPL v2 and v3, and MPL. All of my code is available under MIT.  
> If you list it as any of the above licenses (except MIT), that's 
> fully in line with their TOS. I really don't think we lose 
> anything by multi-licensing anyway. I'd prefer MIT, as it's the 
> least restrictive of the lot, but I suspect we'd legally need 
> approval from all past contributers to that. If we choose LGPL, 
> then it's automatically co-licensed under the GPL, so we're not 
> changing much. I won't support licensing exclusively under the 
> GPL or any other such viral license. That would require, among 
> other things, that every plugin and every addon that uses 
> liberator also be licensed under the GPL. The MPL is pretty 
> much a joke.


Ok, thanks for the input. So LGPL sounds ok for you?

But to be honest, I don't really care too much about licenses,
I just really think that it might be good to focus on one license,
instead of 3 or 4. In principle I agree with you, that too much
restriction is not good, but I really don't know the differences
bewtween the indiviual licenses apart that LGPL is more "free"
than GPL.

Any more input on that issue from other (ex-)developers?

Martin

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 15:31:37 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:31:37 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4AB2B593.8050404@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org> <4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org>
	<20090917202355.GA29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2B593.8050404@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090917223137.GC29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 12:17:55AM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>http://code.google.com/p/support/wiki/FAQ#Hosted_Tools says that:
>
>Q: How can I choose two licenses for my dual-licensed project?
>A: At this time, we offer single licenses only. 

Right, which means it can be listed as one license only. 
Presumably the whole code base needs to be available under that 
license. That doesn't mean it can't be made available under 
other licenses also.

>Ok, thanks for the input. So LGPL sounds ok for you?
>
>But to be honest, I don't really care too much about licenses,
>I just really think that it might be good to focus on one license,
>instead of 3 or 4. In principle I agree with you, that too much
>restriction is not good, but I really don't know the differences
>bewtween the indiviual licenses apart that LGPL is more "free"
>than GPL.

\begin{rant}
Well, according to the FSF, the LGPL is "less free" than the 
GPL. Under their strange ethos, code is more "free" if it can 
only cohort with other "free" code. All of which is to say, the 
GPL is like a "freeness" virus. It infects every bit of code it 
touches, forcing it under the terms of the GPL. That's not free 
to me.
\end{rant}

At any rate, I can live with the LGPL, although I'll continue to 
make my code available under the terms of the MIT license. I 
really don't care to deal with the nine pages of legalese of the 
LGPL. The three paragraphs of ordinary language in the MIT 
license are enough for me.

-- 
Kris Maglione

Get and set methods are evil.
	--Allen Holub


From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Thu Sep 17 15:52:34 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 00:52:34 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <20090917223137.GC29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
	<4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org>	<20090917202355.GA29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>	<4AB2B593.8050404@vimperator.org>
	<20090917223137.GC29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <4AB2BDB2.8030909@vimperator.org>

On 09/18/2009 12:31 AM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> At any rate, I can live with the LGPL, although I'll continue to 
> make my code available under the terms of the MIT license. I 
> really don't care to deal with the nine pages of legalese of the 
> LGPL. The three paragraphs of ordinary language in the MIT 
> license are enough for me.


Yeah, when I read the MIT license, I finally felt, that i understood
a license :) And yeah, that license is much more freedom to me too
than e.g. the GPL - it's the freedom for users AND developers, not
just for users.

Although is there any difference between the code being MIT licensed
and being "public domain"?
(which would not be that much of a problem, just curious)

The only thing is: I don't plan to do it, but would a commercial
application be possible in MIT? I mean, anybody could just reuse
the code and "sell" it for free. Being LGPL licensed, it would
allow commercial distribution of software or am I wrong there
as well?

From xwraithanx at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 15:55:43 2009
From: xwraithanx at gmail.com (Chris McDonald)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:55:43 -0700
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4AB2BDB2.8030909@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org> <4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org>
	<20090917202355.GA29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2B593.8050404@vimperator.org>
	<20090917223137.GC29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2BDB2.8030909@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <7822ca0d0909171555w67a20592m6df90cfe814ba981@mail.gmail.com>

Public domain doesn't exist outside of the US. I know the WTFPL site
explains that a bit.

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 3:52 PM, Martin Stubenschrott
<stubenschrott at vimperator.org> wrote:
> On 09/18/2009 12:31 AM, Kris Maglione wrote:
>
>> At any rate, I can live with the LGPL, although I'll continue to
>> make my code available under the terms of the MIT license. I
>> really don't care to deal with the nine pages of legalese of the
>> LGPL. The three paragraphs of ordinary language in the MIT
>> license are enough for me.
>
>
> Yeah, when I read the MIT license, I finally felt, that i understood
> a license :) And yeah, that license is much more freedom to me too
> than e.g. the GPL - it's the freedom for users AND developers, not
> just for users.
>
> Although is there any difference between the code being MIT licensed
> and being "public domain"?
> (which would not be that much of a problem, just curious)
>
> The only thing is: I don't plan to do it, but would a commercial
> application be possible in MIT? I mean, anybody could just reuse
> the code and "sell" it for free. Being LGPL licensed, it would
> allow commercial distribution of software or am I wrong there
> as well?
> _______________________________________________
> Vimperator mailing list
> Vimperator at mozdev.org
> https://www.mozdev.org/mailman/listinfo/vimperator
>

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 16:19:25 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 19:19:25 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4AB2BDB2.8030909@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org> <4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org>
	<20090917202355.GA29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2B593.8050404@vimperator.org>
	<20090917223137.GC29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2BDB2.8030909@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090917231925.GD29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 12:52:34AM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>Although is there any difference between the code being MIT licensed
>and being "public domain"?

The only difference is that the MIT license requires that the 
copyright notice and disclaimer of liability remain attached to 
substantial portions of the code. There aren't any restrictions 
on object code.

>The only thing is: I don't plan to do it, but would a commercial
>application be possible in MIT? I mean, anybody could just reuse
>the code and "sell" it for free. Being LGPL licensed, it would
>allow commercial distribution of software or am I wrong there
>as well?

Commercial distribution is possible under the GPL, LGPL, and MIT 
licenses. Under the GPL, the source code of the entire project 
always has to be made available along with object code, and 
still under the terms of the GPL. Under the LGPL, only the 
source code explicitly licensed under the LGPL need be made 
available, with any modifications. Under the MIT license, there 
are no such restrictions.

There are nuances to the above, but that's basically it.

-- 
Kris Maglione

C++: an octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog.


From dougkearns at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 19:26:56 2009
From: dougkearns at gmail.com (Doug Kearns)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:26:56 +1000
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4AB2B593.8050404@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
	<4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org> 
	<20090917202355.GA29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2B593.8050404@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <644fc65e0909171926k2021fc74od32d2acf531b9447@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 8:17 AM, Martin Stubenschrott
<stubenschrott at vimperator.org> wrote:
<snip>
> But to be honest, I don't really care too much about licenses,
> I just really think that it might be good to focus on one license,
> instead of 3 or 4. In principle I agree with you, that too much
> restriction is not good, but I really don't know the differences
> bewtween the indiviual licenses apart that LGPL is more "free"
> than GPL.
>
> Any more input on that issue from other (ex-)developers?

In general I couldn't care less about which license but would add my
vote for a BSD style license if pushed.

However, I do think multiple licenses and code 'ownership' by
individual developers is just plain silly.

Doug

From ted at tedpavlic.com  Thu Sep 17 19:36:51 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 22:36:51 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <7822ca0d0909171555w67a20592m6df90cfe814ba981@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org> <4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org>
	<20090917202355.GA29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2B593.8050404@vimperator.org>
	<20090917223137.GC29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2BDB2.8030909@vimperator.org>
	<7822ca0d0909171555w67a20592m6df90cfe814ba981@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AB2F243.7090204@tedpavlic.com>

> Public domain doesn't exist outside of the US. I know the WTFPL site
> explains that a bit.

Public domain doesn't exist in general. The best you can do is include 
with your copyright a license that releases the work for anything under 
the sun.

The MIT license does release the work substantially, but it rides with 
the work for its lifetime (and includes a liability statement releasing 
the original author from any future harm caused by the work).

Personally, I agree 100% with Kris' statements about the MIT license 
probably being the best choice but requiring the most hassle (i.e., 
rounding up all authors for permission). Hence, the LGPL is an obvious 
choice.

It's unfortunate that license selection has become such a complicated 
topic with strong repercussions regarding what software can play with 
what other software and how. For example, the Mercurial (GPLv2, where 
*2* is emphasized) Python API has become useless in some applications 
due to this licensing mess; hence, some projects are forced to use the 
command-line front end (i.e., issue commands and parse results) even 
though they would be much more efficient using the API.

My rules of thumb when releasing work:

*) Copyright always exists, but make it explicit regardless of choice

*) Software that I don't care about, but I want to be sure my name rides 
along next to my contributions: MIT

*) Software that I'd feel icky if it got incorporated into some larger 
closed system: GPLv2

*) Documentation (e.g., teaching documents with LaTeX source) that I 
want my name to ride along with (e.g., where a significant contribution 
has been made): CC-BY (or CC-BY-NC when I don't want someone to make 
money off of that contribution (e.g., in a textbook))

--Ted

-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

   Please visit my 2009 d'Feet ALS walk page:
         http://web.alsa.org/goto/tedp
   My family appreciates your support in the fight to defeat ALS.

From ted at tedpavlic.com  Thu Sep 17 19:39:19 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 22:39:19 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4AB2F243.7090204@tedpavlic.com>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org> <4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org>
	<20090917202355.GA29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2B593.8050404@vimperator.org>
	<20090917223137.GC29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2BDB2.8030909@vimperator.org>
	<7822ca0d0909171555w67a20592m6df90cfe814ba981@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AB2F243.7090204@tedpavlic.com>
Message-ID: <4AB2F2D7.5000304@tedpavlic.com>

> *) Copyright always exists, but make it explicit regardless of choice

Oh, and "(c)" doesn't mean anything. You need a circled c for it to 
carry any meaning. So use word "Copyright" to be sure.

--Ted


-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

   Please visit my 2009 d'Feet ALS walk page:
         http://web.alsa.org/goto/tedp
   My family appreciates your support in the fight to defeat ALS.

From dpb at driftaway.org  Fri Sep 18 00:34:39 2009
From: dpb at driftaway.org (Daniel Bainton)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 10:34:39 +0300
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <644fc65e0909171926k2021fc74od32d2acf531b9447@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
	<4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org> 
	<20090917202355.GA29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2B593.8050404@vimperator.org> 
	<644fc65e0909171926k2021fc74od32d2acf531b9447@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dd9711230909180034tf0af2a9v21a2c0c52ce294ee@mail.gmail.com>

2009/9/18 Doug Kearns <dougkearns at gmail.com>:
> However, I do think multiple licenses and code 'ownership' by
> individual developers is just plain silly.

+1

--
Daniel

From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Fri Sep 18 01:56:10 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 10:56:10 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] toggle view source
Message-ID: <4AB34B2A.6030601@vimperator.org>

With Kris' last commit I just saw, that we have a mapping for \ by default?
(Who added that, btw? - no "offence", just curious?)

     mappings.add(myModes, ["\\"],
         "Toggle between rendered and source view",

While the functionality is ok, isn't \ supposed to be the default
<Leader>? 

I was always annoyed that gf would work in one way, but not back.
Can't we just use "gf" to do toggling of source view? Makes much
more sense imho.

From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Fri Sep 18 02:25:58 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 11:25:58 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <20090917231925.GD29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
	<4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org>	<20090917202355.GA29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>	<4AB2B593.8050404@vimperator.org>	<20090917223137.GC29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>	<4AB2BDB2.8030909@vimperator.org>
	<20090917231925.GD29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <4AB35226.4070602@vimperator.org>

On 09/18/2009 01:19 AM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> Commercial distribution is possible under the GPL, LGPL, and MIT 
> licenses.


Am I misreading this paragraph (from the MIT license) then?

Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy
of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software")


If we went the LGPL way, version 2 or 3 would be better?

But on the whole I really like the MITs (or Simple BSDs) simplicity, which
can simply be included directly in the code without linking to the
"full" license.

However, my main motivation is to achieve that what Doug and Daniel like
as well:

> However, I do think multiple licenses and code 'ownership' by
> individual developers is just plain silly.

Therefore the best license would be one, where in future I would not
have to get permission by all contributors to change a license, but
if the vimperator (developer) community decides to change something,
it could be done on per-project basis and not with each individual
developer, but I guess Kris does not want to play with that
"community license"...

From dougkearns at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 03:00:50 2009
From: dougkearns at gmail.com (Doug Kearns)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 20:00:50 +1000
Subject: [Vimperator] toggle view source
In-Reply-To: <4AB34B2A.6030601@vimperator.org>
References: <4AB34B2A.6030601@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <644fc65e0909180300t6863f19bpb45f6c911ba44702@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Martin Stubenschrott
<stubenschrott at vimperator.org> wrote:
> With Kris' last commit I just saw, that we have a mapping for \ by default?
> (Who added that, btw? - no "offence", just curious?)

Me.  It's the standard view source key in lynx, elinks et al.

> ? ? mappings.add(myModes, ["\\"],
> ? ? ? ? "Toggle between rendered and source view",
>
> While the functionality is ok, isn't \ supposed to be the default
> <Leader>?

Yes, but this poses no real problem.  Of course, we need '*timeout*'
options but I haven't got around to it yet.

It currently behaves like :set notimeout nottimeout which is actually
a significant improvement over the past behaviour.

> I was always annoyed that gf would work in one way, but not back.
> Can't we just use "gf" to do toggling of source view? Makes much
> more sense imho.

I never really liked the "gf" binding myself, but I'm just a crusty
old Vim devotee.  :)

Doug

From ted at tedpavlic.com  Fri Sep 18 04:41:15 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 07:41:15 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] toggle view source
In-Reply-To: <644fc65e0909180300t6863f19bpb45f6c911ba44702@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AB34B2A.6030601@vimperator.org>
	<644fc65e0909180300t6863f19bpb45f6c911ba44702@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AB371DB.5040708@tedpavlic.com>


> Me.  It's the standard view source key in lynx, elinks et al.

Sometimes these choices seem schizophrenic (i.e., which project is Vimp 
supposed to mimic?). Because Vim isn't a browser, there's probably some 
room for this, but it's probably good to be careful. Otherwise there 
will start to be feature requests for other elinks keybindings that 
perhaps are even less in the spirit of Vim.

>>      mappings.add(myModes, ["\\"],
>>          "Toggle between rendered and source view",

On my system, this mapping causes "\\" (i.e., two backslashes) to toggle 
the source view. I believe that "\" is what is intended (to match 
elinks/etc.). This discussion (and Vimp documentation) makes me think 
that this is a bug.

On other systems, is this mapping actually working as a single backslash?

> Yes, but this poses no real problem.  Of course, we need '*timeout*'
> options but I haven't got around to it yet.

So someone who types "\" and then doesn't manage to get the following 
key out quickly enough is going to see the source?

--Ted


-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

   Please visit my 2009 d'Feet ALS walk page:
         http://web.alsa.org/goto/tedp
   My family appreciates your support in the fight to defeat ALS.

From ted at tedpavlic.com  Fri Sep 18 04:47:08 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 07:47:08 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] toggle view source
In-Reply-To: <4AB34B2A.6030601@vimperator.org>
References: <4AB34B2A.6030601@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <4AB3733C.9030803@tedpavlic.com>

> I was always annoyed that gf would work in one way, but not back.
> Can't we just use "gf" to do toggling of source view? Makes much
> more sense imho.

But that would create an asymmetry between gf and gF, right (i.e., gF 
cannot practically toggle)? Additionally, the toggling behavior 
certainly doesn't match what "gf" does in Vim.

In source mode, I'd like to be able to turn on caret mode, move my 
cursor to a file name, and then use "gf" to go to the file linked by the 
source.

(that being said, a "toggle source view" (like \\) is nice)

--Ted



-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

   Please visit my 2009 d'Feet ALS walk page:
         http://web.alsa.org/goto/tedp
   My family appreciates your support in the fight to defeat ALS.

From ted at tedpavlic.com  Fri Sep 18 04:48:32 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 07:48:32 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] toggle view source
In-Reply-To: <4AB3733C.9030803@tedpavlic.com>
References: <4AB34B2A.6030601@vimperator.org> <4AB3733C.9030803@tedpavlic.com>
Message-ID: <4AB37390.5040807@tedpavlic.com>

> In source mode, I'd like to be able to turn on caret mode, move my
> cursor to a file name, and then use "gf" to go to the file linked by the
> source.

OTOH, hints work fine for this, and I can't think of a good example of 
when they wouldn't. It would just match Vim better, but in this case, I 
don't know why Vim needs to be matched well.

-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

   Please visit my 2009 d'Feet ALS walk page:
         http://web.alsa.org/goto/tedp
   My family appreciates your support in the fight to defeat ALS.

From dougkearns at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 06:38:59 2009
From: dougkearns at gmail.com (Doug Kearns)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:38:59 +1000
Subject: [Vimperator] toggle view source
In-Reply-To: <4AB371DB.5040708@tedpavlic.com>
References: <4AB34B2A.6030601@vimperator.org>
	<644fc65e0909180300t6863f19bpb45f6c911ba44702@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4AB371DB.5040708@tedpavlic.com>
Message-ID: <644fc65e0909180638t1421a92fheea7d641426cc6b4@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 9:41 PM, Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com> wrote:
>
>> Me. ?It's the standard view source key in lynx, elinks et al.
>
> Sometimes these choices seem schizophrenic (i.e., which project is Vimp
> supposed to mimic?). Because Vim isn't a browser, there's probably some room
> for this, but it's probably good to be careful. Otherwise there will start
> to be feature requests for other elinks keybindings that perhaps are even
> less in the spirit of Vim.

Well mimicking something like elinks would make much more sense I
think, however, this is a long and boring discussion but not one that
you've been engaged in so far so you're not to blame for raising it.
;-)

In short, I ideally see Vimperator functioning just like like Vim with
the text editing buffer switched out for a browser.  There's no way to
sensibly map the text editing commands to the browser, even in spirit,
so I don't think that the example is a problem.  How would one mimic
Vim here anyway?  The "gf" command in Vimperator has no correlation
with that in Vim so it's certainly not more 'compatible' than "\".

That said, there's certainly some consensus among the developers that
closely mimicking Vim is a bit silly.  There's a wiki page
http://vimperator.org/trac/wiki/Vimperator/PostVimperator where some
discussion of a more general future implementation has started but I
don't hold out much hope of us agreeing on a future direction.  I
think the Vim aping is a fortunate coalescing force.

>>> ? ? mappings.add(myModes, ["\\"],
>>> ? ? ? ? "Toggle between rendered and source view",
>
> On my system, this mapping causes "\\" (i.e., two backslashes) to toggle the
> source view. I believe that "\" is what is intended (to match elinks/etc.).
> This discussion (and Vimp documentation) makes me think that this is a bug.

Well it's similar to the expected Vim-like behaviour given the missing
timeout functionality.  It doesn't execute the "\" until a key that's
not part of a longer mapping is pressed.  Although we apparently eat
the clarifying key event while Vim executes them both which is a bug.

<snip>

> So someone who types "\" and then doesn't manage to get the following key
> out quickly enough is going to see the source?

Right.  Try :map g :echo "G is good"<CR> in Vim and see how it works
with, for example, gg.

Doug

From ted at tedpavlic.com  Fri Sep 18 07:03:24 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 10:03:24 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] toggle view source
In-Reply-To: <644fc65e0909180638t1421a92fheea7d641426cc6b4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AB34B2A.6030601@vimperator.org>
	<644fc65e0909180300t6863f19bpb45f6c911ba44702@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AB371DB.5040708@tedpavlic.com>
	<644fc65e0909180638t1421a92fheea7d641426cc6b4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AB3932C.7050007@tedpavlic.com>

>> On my system, this mapping causes "\\" (i.e., two backslashes) to toggle the
>> source view. I believe that "\" is what is intended (to match elinks/etc.).
>> This discussion (and Vimp documentation) makes me think that this is a bug.
>
> Well it's similar to the expected Vim-like behaviour given the missing
> timeout functionality.  It doesn't execute the "\" until a key that's
> not part of a longer mapping is pressed.  Although we apparently eat
> the clarifying key event while Vim executes them both which is a bug.

Okay -- I tried

\<CR>

and didn't get the source. I didn't try \z, which did give me the 
source. Does it make sense that <CR> cancels the combination?

>> So someone who types "\" and then doesn't manage to get the following key
>> out quickly enough is going to see the source?
>
> Right.  Try :map g :echo "G is good"<CR>  in Vim and see how it works
> with, for example, gg.

I'm familiar with how Vim does it, and I'm OK with how timeouts work. I 
just wonder if viewing the source is too aggressive. That is, with a 
small hesitation, you manage to navigate off of your current page. That 
seems dangerous.

--Ted


-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

   Please visit my 2009 d'Feet ALS walk page:
         http://web.alsa.org/goto/tedp
   My family appreciates your support in the fight to defeat ALS.

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 07:33:41 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 10:33:41 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <644fc65e0909171926k2021fc74od32d2acf531b9447@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org> <4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org>
	<20090917202355.GA29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2B593.8050404@vimperator.org>
	<644fc65e0909171926k2021fc74od32d2acf531b9447@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090918143341.GA12114@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 12:26:56PM +1000, Doug Kearns wrote:
>However, I do think multiple licenses and code 'ownership' by
>individual developers is just plain silly.

Like it or not, that's how copyright law works in most country. 
When you publish a piece of code, you own it, unless you 
explicitly disclaim copyright, and then only in certain 
jurisdictions.

-- 
Kris Maglione

Correctness is clearly the prime quality.  If a system does not do
what it is supposed to do, then everything else about it matters
little.
	--Bertrand Meyer


From maglione.k at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 07:40:01 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 10:40:01 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4AB35226.4070602@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org> <4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org>
	<20090917202355.GA29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2B593.8050404@vimperator.org>
	<20090917223137.GC29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2BDB2.8030909@vimperator.org>
	<20090917231925.GD29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB35226.4070602@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090918144001.GB12114@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 11:25:58AM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>Am I misreading this paragraph (from the MIT license) then?
>
>Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy
>of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software")

That doesn't forbid commercial distribution. The license 
explicitly notes the rights to sell or sublicense the software, 
which means additional restrictions may be added, so long as the 
copyright and disclaimer remain attached.

>If we went the LGPL way, version 2 or 3 would be better?

Probably "v2 or any later version". v3 is a pain in the ass.

>but I guess Kris does not want to play with that "community license"...

I really don't know what you mean by a community license. All 
I'm saying is that any code I commit can be used under the terms 
of the MIT license (or any compatible license) by anyone who so 
chooses.

-- 
Kris Maglione

You're bound to be unhappy if you optimize everything.
	--Donald Knuth


From invite+hkh-v-hd at facebookmail.com  Fri Sep 18 08:51:33 2009
From: invite+hkh-v-hd at facebookmail.com (Renick Bell)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 08:51:33 -0700
Subject: [Vimperator] Check out my photos on Facebook
Message-ID: <213dc91769cfd757a75c92d1b6cb6bda@localhost.localdomain>

Hi vimperator at mozdev.org,

I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own profile.

Thanks,
Renick

To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below:
http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=100000244637353&k=Z6E3Y5U6QX413GGJPBZZQSVRZT&r


vimperator at mozdev.org was invited to join Facebook by Renick Bell. If you do not wish to receive this type of email from Facebook in the future, please click on the link below to unsubscribe.
http://www.facebook.com/o.php?k=77cdc3&u=1056077191&mid=11da9b3G3ef27587G0G8
Facebook's offices are located at 1601 S. California Ave., Palo Alto, CA 94304.

-------------- next part --------------
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From maglione.k at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 08:57:15 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 11:57:15 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Check out my photos on Facebook
In-Reply-To: <213dc91769cfd757a75c92d1b6cb6bda@localhost.localdomain>
References: <213dc91769cfd757a75c92d1b6cb6bda@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20090918155715.GA3621@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 08:51:33AM -0700, Renick Bell wrote:
>I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own profile.

I might take this opportunity to mention another reason to move 
to Google Groups: world class spam filtering. My Gmail spam box 
gets around 10 messages a day, and I rarely see any in my inbox. 
The Google Groups web interface even lets users report messages as 
spam. There are quite a few other reasons to switch, especially 
if we're moving go Google for code and web hosting, but I'd say 
that's a big one.

-- 
Kris Maglione

It is a farce to call any being virtuous whose virtues do not result
from the exercise of its own reason.
	--Mary Wollstonecraft


From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Fri Sep 18 09:11:09 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:11:09 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Check out my photos on Facebook
In-Reply-To: <20090918155715.GA3621@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <213dc91769cfd757a75c92d1b6cb6bda@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090918155715.GA3621@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <4AB3B11D.30306@vimperator.org>

On 09/18/2009 05:57 PM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 08:51:33AM -0700, Renick Bell wrote:
>>I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own profile.
> 
> I might take this opportunity to mention another reason to move 
> to Google Groups: world class spam filtering. My Gmail spam box 
> gets around 10 messages a day, and I rarely see any in my inbox. 
> The Google Groups web interface even lets users report messages as 
> spam. There are quite a few other reasons to switch, especially 
> if we're moving go Google for code and web hosting, but I'd say 
> that's a big one.


Although I think anybody can send messages to google groups, whereas
the mozdev mailing list is semi-moderated for non-subscribers.

Therefore for the end user google groups might even have more spam,
but it would certainly make my life a little easier, as i would not
have to read the daily "spam" digest before mails from unsubscribed
are accepted.

From dougkearns at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 09:11:43 2009
From: dougkearns at gmail.com (Doug Kearns)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 02:11:43 +1000
Subject: [Vimperator] toggle view source
In-Reply-To: <4AB3932C.7050007@tedpavlic.com>
References: <4AB34B2A.6030601@vimperator.org>
	<644fc65e0909180300t6863f19bpb45f6c911ba44702@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4AB371DB.5040708@tedpavlic.com>
	<644fc65e0909180638t1421a92fheea7d641426cc6b4@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4AB3932C.7050007@tedpavlic.com>
Message-ID: <644fc65e0909180911y24396dddlf4db88b7d71be86d@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 12:03 AM, Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com> wrote:
<snip>

> Okay -- I tried
>
> \<CR>
>
> and didn't get the source. I didn't try \z, which did give me the source.
> Does it make sense that <CR> cancels the combination?

It's because <CR> and a couple of other keys are treated specially
(ignored) for reasons I've never understood.  They should just be
mapped to pass-through rather than ignored completely one would think.

So, \<Left> should currently work while \<Up> does not - weird, eh? :)

Doug

From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Fri Sep 18 09:15:59 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:15:59 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] toggle view source
In-Reply-To: <644fc65e0909180638t1421a92fheea7d641426cc6b4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AB34B2A.6030601@vimperator.org>	<644fc65e0909180300t6863f19bpb45f6c911ba44702@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AB371DB.5040708@tedpavlic.com>
	<644fc65e0909180638t1421a92fheea7d641426cc6b4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AB3B23F.8050507@vimperator.org>

On 09/18/2009 03:38 PM, Doug Kearns wrote:

>> So someone who types "\" and then doesn't manage to get the following key
>> out quickly enough is going to see the source?
> 
> Right.  Try :map g :echo "G is good"<CR> in Vim and see how it works
> with, for example, gg.


The big difference is, vim requires the user to :map such scenarios,
it does not have e.g. "g" AND "gg" as a built-in command.

We could also change gf and gF and \ as well to a completely new mapping
for toggling the source view. Ideas? % might probably make sense as a
toggling symbol and not sure if the original meaning of vim ever makes
sense in vimperator's normal mode and if we really need a gF mapping
anyway. For me, though, gf for toggling would be fine as well.

--
Martin

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 09:17:33 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:17:33 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Check out my photos on Facebook
In-Reply-To: <4AB3B11D.30306@vimperator.org>
References: <213dc91769cfd757a75c92d1b6cb6bda@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090918155715.GA3621@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB3B11D.30306@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090918161733.GB3621@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 06:11:09PM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>> I might take this opportunity to mention another reason to move 
>> to Google Groups: world class spam filtering. My Gmail spam box 
>> gets around 10 messages a day, and I rarely see any in my inbox. 
>> The Google Groups web interface even lets users report messages as 
>> spam. There are quite a few other reasons to switch, especially 
>> if we're moving go Google for code and web hosting, but I'd say 
>> that's a big one.
>
>Although I think anybody can send messages to google groups, whereas
>the mozdev mailing list is semi-moderated for non-subscribers.

No, the list administrators decide who can send messages. 
Administrators only, members only, or everyone.

-- 
Kris Maglione

I think conventional languages are for the birds.  They're just
extensions of the von Neumann computer, and they keep our noses in the
dirt of dealing with individual words and computing addresses, and
doing all kinds of silly things like that, things that we've picked up
from programming for computers; we've built them into programming
languages; we've built them into Fortran; we've built them in PL/1;
we've built them into almost every language.
	--John Backus


From ted at tedpavlic.com  Fri Sep 18 09:19:09 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:19:09 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Check out my photos on Facebook
In-Reply-To: <4AB3B11D.30306@vimperator.org>
References: <213dc91769cfd757a75c92d1b6cb6bda@localhost.localdomain>
	<20090918155715.GA3621@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB3B11D.30306@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <4AB3B2FD.2030400@tedpavlic.com>

> Although I think anybody can send messages to google groups, whereas
> the mozdev mailing list is semi-moderated for non-subscribers.

In both cases, isn't that configurable? If not through the web 
interface, then through the mailing list manager bot.

> Therefore for the end user google groups might even have more spam,
> but it would certainly make my life a little easier, as i would not
> have to read the daily "spam" digest before mails from unsubscribed
> are accepted.

Google's spam filter works poorly for my mail. I still receive a lot of 
spam, and some messages are marked as false positives (not very often, 
but sometimes). Messages that I mark as spam over and over again keep 
coming back. I think it's hit or miss. So I'm not convinced that Google 
Groups will have less spam than a properly configured mailing list that 
(for example) only accepts messages from members.

--Ted


-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

   Please visit my 2009 d'Feet ALS walk page:
         http://web.alsa.org/goto/tedp
   My family appreciates your support in the fight to defeat ALS.

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 14:08:23 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 17:08:23 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] [Important] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090918210822.GC3621@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

Given that we're strongly considering moving to Google Code, I 
have a small favor to ask of you all. The Google Code issue 
tracker has a small misfeature that, in my experience at least, 
wastes a lot of time. I'd like as many of you as possible to 
star the issue, since it's a trivial fix which seems low on 
their priority list:

http://code.google.com/p/support/issues/detail?id=1163

The issue is this: all attachments to issues must be downloaded 
before they can be viewed, and deleted afterwards. Firefox 
refuses to even "Open [them] externally". Though this may seem 
trivial, for screenshots, patches, and the like, it really slows 
down reviewing issues, compared to the relative ease of viewing 
them directly in the browser. I've often in the past put off 
looking into issues for that inconvenience alone, so anyone who 
wants bugs fixed in a timely manner should be concerned.

If you'd like to be especially helpful, please add a comment 
referencing a bug in a non-Vimperator-related project with such 
an attachment.

Thanks,
-- 
Kris Maglione

A plumber has around eight years training in the US. That's to fix my
goddamn toilet.  Yet, how much training do you have to do to be
allowed to build software for a plane carrying hundreds of people?
	--James Coplien


From rz at linux-m68k.org  Fri Sep 18 14:47:59 2009
From: rz at linux-m68k.org (Richard Zidlicky)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:47:59 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] External editor & full screen view problem
In-Reply-To: <4AB15DDD.8000606@vimperator.org>
References: <20090916102401.GA10081@linux-m68k.org>
	<4AB15DDD.8000606@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090918214759.GA4826@linux-m68k.org>

On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 11:51:25PM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
> 
> I don't think we can workaround that, as we just launch an external program when
> invoking the editor. Maybe it's a firefox or window manager issue?

There are workarounds, like invoking the editor from a schell script that does 
"wmctrl -a window-title".

Somehow I also  believe Firefox in principle has the possibility to raise or lower windows,
at least its own windows, however I have never looked at this in detail. 
In Edit/prefs/content/javascript-advanced there is a whole bunch of related options and 
I assume chrome code could use this functionality without restrictions.

The "wmctrl -a" workaround would be even easier if vimperator choose a slightly different
file naming scheme for the temporary file: right now I have to grep the window list to have 
a unique identifier but if the file ending was eg ".vimp.tmp" than a plain "wmctrl -a .vimp.tmp" 
would suffice.

It would be even nicer if every editor had the option equivalent of "wmctrl -a" - maybe some
have?

The problem of course is a more general problem of Firefox & WM interaction, on my Fedora
setup for example when I press the power button while Firefox is full screen it will display
the shutdown menu *under* the Ffx window - very intelligent.

I have also tried invoking an external pdf viewer from Firefox in fullscreen mode,
same result.

> I am not fond of that warning message, as it would be a stupid message for people
> where it works, and for the others it still does not say, how to to exit from that
> dilemma (I had to focus another textfield first, before F11 worked to un-fullscreen
> firefox).

looks like yet another Firefox bug if F11 does not work? You have convinced me with the
warning message, as nobody is likely to invoke an external editor without reading the
manual it should be sufficient to mention the problem there.

Richard


> 
> --
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
> Vimperator mailing list
> Vimperator at mozdev.org
> https://www.mozdev.org/mailman/listinfo/vimperator

From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Fri Sep 18 14:55:40 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:55:40 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <4AB401DC.2000803@vimperator.org>

Given the fact that the issue API just started to being worked on:

http://code.google.com/p/support/issues/detail?id=148&q=api&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Milestone%20Priority%20Stars%20Owner%20Summary

it probably is not ready within the next month.

Therefore I might have to go the hard way (again, after doing the mozdev -> trac move),
and manually transfer all relevant bugs/plugins, etc. :/

It might therefore be cool, if people could:

a) Test plugins to see if they work with 2.1 (or even better, current git which will become 2.2 very soon hopefully)
b) Close bugs which are not relevant anymore

Thanks :)

--
Martin

PS: What's the best name for the google code project, ideas:
a) vimperator: Not the best, since it hosts muttator/xulmus as well, but would match "vimperator".org's domain name
b) liberator: Might make sense if we see the liberator library as one part of the "vimperator labs" project
   and mainly see google code for hosting this library.
c) vimperator_labs: Unfortunately vimperator does not allow spaces in the project name,
   but "vimperator labs" would fit nicely if we see the google project hosting as a place which hosts all
   our wiki, downloads, issues for all our projects.

The reason this is more important than you might think, is because the title
of the google code page (in this case ps3mediaserver: http://code.google.com/p/ps3mediaserver/w/list )
is taken from the project name, and cannot (yet) be changed later.

Another possibility would be to create 3 google code projects for vimperator/muttator/xulmus,
but I don't know how well that plays since we host them all in one repo.

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 15:33:20 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:33:20 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4AB401DC.2000803@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org> <4AB401DC.2000803@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090918223320.GD3621@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 11:55:40PM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>Given the fact that the issue API just started to being worked on:
>
>http://code.google.com/p/support/issues/detail?id=148&q=api&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Milestone%20Priority%20Stars%20Owner%20Summary
>
>it probably is not ready within the next month.

You can still HTTP POST them with curl or an HTTP capable 
scripting language. Send me an sqlite dump of the trac DB and 
I'll transfer them. It would probably be a good idea to revoke 
TICKET_CREATE, TICKET_APPEND, and TICKET_MODIFY for 
non-developers in the interim.

>PS: What's the best name for the google code project, ideas:
>c) vimperator_labs: Unfortunately vimperator does not allow spaces in the project name,
>   but "vimperator labs" would fit nicely if we see the google project hosting as a place which hosts all
>   our wiki, downloads, issues for all our projects.

vimperator-labs would be inline with the pervailing trend. It's 
also the identifier name you'd use in lisp, which is of course 
as good a reason as any to choose it.

>Another possibility would be to create 3 google code projects for vimperator/muttator/xulmus,
>but I don't know how well that plays since we host them all in one repo.

We'd need 4, one separate for liberator. It would be too 
confusing. I would just create one and probably add issue tags 
for Component-Vimperator (...) or Project-Vimperator.

-- 
Kris Maglione

There are two ways of constructing a software design.  One way is to
make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies.  And the
other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies.
	--C.A.R. Hoare


From gary.katsevman at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 15:43:36 2009
From: gary.katsevman at gmail.com (Gary Katsevman)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:43:36 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <20090918223320.GD3621@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
	<4AB401DC.2000803@vimperator.org> 
	<20090918223320.GD3621@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <97265dfa0909181543v5d5062cfj4f2578b085d61cac@mail.gmail.com>

In fact you could just create 3 templates. or 9 rather, plugin, bug
and feature request templates for vimperator, xulmus and muttator.
each template will have their own issue tacking tags by default and
the user could add more.
I have created a sample project that you can use to play around to see
if you like google code. I have already granted Martin access to it
and he has been playing around there, if someone wants to play around
in it as well, let me know and I could grant you access.
------------------------
Gary Katsevman
Computer Science Undergraduate
Northeastern University
gkatsev at ccs.neu.edu
gkatsev.com



On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 18:33, Kris Maglione <maglione.k at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 11:55:40PM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>>
>> Given the fact that the issue API just started to being worked on:
>>
>>
>> http://code.google.com/p/support/issues/detail?id=148&q=api&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Milestone%20Priority%20Stars%20Owner%20Summary
>>
>> it probably is not ready within the next month.
>
> You can still HTTP POST them with curl or an HTTP capable scripting
> language. Send me an sqlite dump of the trac DB and I'll transfer them. It
> would probably be a good idea to revoke TICKET_CREATE, TICKET_APPEND, and
> TICKET_MODIFY for non-developers in the interim.
>
>> PS: What's the best name for the google code project, ideas:
>> c) vimperator_labs: Unfortunately vimperator does not allow spaces in the
>> project name,
>> ?but "vimperator labs" would fit nicely if we see the google project
>> hosting as a place which hosts all
>> ?our wiki, downloads, issues for all our projects.
>
> vimperator-labs would be inline with the pervailing trend. It's also the
> identifier name you'd use in lisp, which is of course as good a reason as
> any to choose it.
>
>> Another possibility would be to create 3 google code projects for
>> vimperator/muttator/xulmus,
>> but I don't know how well that plays since we host them all in one repo.
>
> We'd need 4, one separate for liberator. It would be too confusing. I would
> just create one and probably add issue tags for Component-Vimperator (...)
> or Project-Vimperator.
>
> --
> Kris Maglione
>
> There are two ways of constructing a software design. ?One way is to
> make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies. ?And the
> other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
> deficiencies.
> ? ? ? ?--C.A.R. Hoare
>
> _______________________________________________
> Vimperator mailing list
> Vimperator at mozdev.org
> https://www.mozdev.org/mailman/listinfo/vimperator
>

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 23:33:06 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 02:33:06 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <97265dfa0909181543v5d5062cfj4f2578b085d61cac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org> <4AB401DC.2000803@vimperator.org>
	<20090918223320.GD3621@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<97265dfa0909181543v5d5062cfj4f2578b085d61cac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090919063305.GE3621@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 06:43:36PM -0400, Gary Katsevman wrote:
>In fact you could just create 3 templates. or 9 rather, plugin, bug
>and feature request templates for vimperator, xulmus and muttator.
>each template will have their own issue tacking tags by default and
>the user could add more.
>I have created a sample project that you can use to play around to see
>if you like google code. I have already granted Martin access to it
>and he has been playing around there, if someone wants to play around
>in it as well, let me know and I could grant you access.

I've been using Google Code for some time now, so I don't really 
need to play around. Looking at the project, though, I do want 
to suggest that we limit our use of the project page to a brief 
description, issues, downloads, VCS, and perhaps some assorted 
wiki pages. For the rest, namely the FAQ and documentation, I 
suggest we set up a proper site. From what I've seen of other 
projects, it seems impossible to set up a professional-looking 
project environment on Google Code alone. The wiki is just too 
ugly and too watered down. The issue tracker and VCS browser are 
about as good as they come, as is Google Groups, but beyond that 
it's just not ideal.

-- 
Kris Maglione

It is practically impossible to teach good programming style to
students that have had prior exposure to Basic; as potential
programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.
	--Edsger W. Dijkstra


From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Sat Sep 19 02:36:38 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 11:36:38 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <20090919063305.GE3621@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
	<4AB401DC.2000803@vimperator.org>	<20090918223320.GD3621@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>	<97265dfa0909181543v5d5062cfj4f2578b085d61cac@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090919063305.GE3621@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <4AB4A626.9060601@vimperator.org>

On 09/19/2009 08:33 AM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> I've been using Google Code for some time now, so I don't really 
> need to play around. Looking at the project, though, I do want 
> to suggest that we limit our use of the project page to a brief 
> description, issues, downloads, VCS, and perhaps some assorted 
> wiki pages. For the rest, namely the FAQ and documentation, I 
> suggest we set up a proper site. From what I've seen of other 
> projects, it seems impossible to set up a professional-looking 
> project environment on Google Code alone. The wiki is just too 
> ugly and too watered down. The issue tracker and VCS browser are 
> about as good as they come, as is Google Groups, but beyond that 
> it's just not ideal.

That was the plan the whole time anyway. Yesterday I had time to
play more with google sites, and while far from finished, I already
made some nice progress to:

http://test.vimperator.org/

The plan is to have the project descriptions, screenshots, blog, etc.
there anyway (also because all pages there are shown as vimperator.org,
which google code is not).

For the wiki I am not sure though. The main reason what i like about
google code's approach there is that it shows all wiki pages in a
nice list view like this:

http://code.google.com/p/gkatsev/w/list

and the wiki page itself also seems to be good enough (note that the
FAQ page was just a 1:1 copy/paste of the old markup, needs to be
adjusted for google code's wiki markup)

So my idea is that vimperator.org (google sites) is meant for end users,
and tries to put as much content directly there (download links, screenshots,...)
and directly links to the google code section like "vimperator plugins"
and the google code page is meant for developers who "know what they are doing"
but the end user should not need to navigate within the google code
pages.

Also this distinction would mean, that probably only I will need write access
to the "homepage" (google pages), and there is a single place (google code)
where I can grant permissions for project collaborators who cannot just
submit code but also change/add wiki pages there.

Martin

PS: The google code "Project home" page will also not describe the individual
"products", but describe the idea/vision of "vimperator labs" in general.

From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Sat Sep 19 02:51:36 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 11:51:36 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <20090918223320.GD3621@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org> <4AB401DC.2000803@vimperator.org>
	<20090918223320.GD3621@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <4AB4A9A8.7000203@vimperator.org>

On 09/19/2009 12:33 AM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> You can still HTTP POST them with curl or an HTTP capable 
> scripting language. Send me an sqlite dump of the trac DB and 
> I'll transfer them.


Wow, that'd be great! I thought about that shortly myself, but
thought that creating such a script will take longer than
a manual transfer, especially if we also care about comments
and attachments. But on the other hand, a semi manual approach
would also be ok, so such a script would not need to be
perfect.

That will certainly help you reading the database:

http://github.com/davglass/trac2issues/blob/master/trac2issues.py

and maybe Daniel can provide you a DB dump, so you can play around
a little?

> It would probably be a good idea to revoke 
> TICKET_CREATE, TICKET_APPEND, and TICKET_MODIFY for 
> non-developers in the interim.

Yeah certainly. The question is, when is the best time for the
move? I probably should finish the homepage and the google code
setup first and will move the current wiki pages manually, since
they require some love/reorganization anyway.

>>PS: What's the best name for the google code project, ideas:
>>c) vimperator_labs: Unfortunately vimperator does not allow spaces in the project name,
>>   but "vimperator labs" would fit nicely if we see the google project hosting as a place which hosts all
>>   our wiki, downloads, issues for all our projects.
> 
> vimperator-labs would be inline with the pervailing trend. It's 
> also the identifier name you'd use in lisp, which is of course 
> as good a reason as any to choose it.

I agree (apart from the - funny - lisp reference ;)), vimperator-labs sounds like a good idea.

> We'd need 4, one separate for liberator. It would be too 
> confusing. I would just create one and probably add issue tags 
> for Component-Vimperator (...) or Project-Vimperator.



Yeah, that was the plan. Although i thought "vimperator" alone
would be good enough for the tag, or does Foo-Vimperator really
has advantages?

--
Martin

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Sat Sep 19 08:55:11 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 11:55:11 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4AB4A9A8.7000203@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org> <4AB401DC.2000803@vimperator.org>
	<20090918223320.GD3621@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB4A9A8.7000203@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090919155511.GA8277@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 11:51:36AM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>Yeah, that was the plan. Although i thought "vimperator" alone
>would be good enough for the tag, or does Foo-Vimperator really
>has advantages?

A few. First, it would mean you could search for 
project:Vimperator (or whatever) instead of label:Vimperator. 
It's trivial, I know, but I just think it looks a bit cleaner to 
users. Second, it does seem more in line with the general style 
of issue tags on Google Code. Third, it makes it a bit more 
obvious just what the label means, especially when looking at 
the label list.

-- 
Kris Maglione

The more I learn, the more I realize what little I know.
	--Albert Einstein


From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Sat Sep 19 08:59:57 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 17:59:57 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <20090919155511.GA8277@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
	<4AB401DC.2000803@vimperator.org>	<20090918223320.GD3621@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>	<4AB4A9A8.7000203@vimperator.org>
	<20090919155511.GA8277@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <4AB4FFFD.70000@vimperator.org>

On 09/19/2009 05:55 PM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> A few. First, it would mean you could search for 
> project:Vimperator (or whatever) instead of label:Vimperator. 
> It's trivial, I know, but I just think it looks a bit cleaner to 
> users. Second, it does seem more in line with the general style 
> of issue tags on Google Code. Third, it makes it a bit more 
> obvious just what the label means, especially when looking at 
> the label list.


Good arguments, I will create Project-Vimperator like labels
then. Thanks!

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Sat Sep 19 11:56:57 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 14:56:57 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4AB35226.4070602@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org> <4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org>
	<20090917202355.GA29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2B593.8050404@vimperator.org>
	<20090917223137.GC29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2BDB2.8030909@vimperator.org>
	<20090917231925.GD29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB35226.4070602@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090919185657.GA27259@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 11:25:58AM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>Therefore the best license would be one, where in future I would not
>have to get permission by all contributors to change a license,

I just grepped through the commit log, and tallied the authors:

1615	Author: Doug Kearns <dougkearns at gmail.com>
809	Author: Kris Maglione <maglione.k at gmail.com>
779	Author: Martin Stubenschrott <stubenschrott at gmx.net>
112	Author: Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>
86	Author: Daniel Bainton <dpb at driftaway.org>
45	Author: anekos <anekos at snca.net>
39	Author: Marco Candrian <mac at calmar.ws>
33	Author: Conrad Irwin <conrad.irwin at gmail.com>
28	Author: Martin Stubenschrott <stubenschrott at vimperator.org>
21	Author: Prathyush Thota <prathyushthota at gmail.com>
20	Author: Viktor Kojouharov <vkojouharov at gmail.com>
13	Author: Tim Hammerquist <penryu at gmail.com>
7	Author: teramako <teramako at gmail.com>
7	Author: janus_wel <janus.wel.3 at gmail.com>
3	Author: ?t?p?n N?mec <stepnem at gmail.com>
3	Author: U-MAIN\anekos <anekos at main.(none)>
3	Author: Daniel Bainton <daniel.bainton at movial.fi>
1	Author: mac <mac>
1	Author: kenneslin <ken at kenneslin.(none)>
1	Author: Timo Mihaljov <noid.phn at gmail.com>
1	Author: Stepnem <stepnem at gmail.com>
1	Author: Martin Stubenschrott <maxauthority at maxauthority-desktop.(none)>
1	Author: Konstantin Stepanov <milezv at yandex.ru>
1	Author: Janus Wel <janus.wel.3 at gmail.com>

I've skimmed their commits, and I think that to change the 
license now (to anything other than GPL, LGPL, or MPL), we'd 
only need permission from Martin, Doug, Daniel, Conrad, penryu, 
Ted, and Calmar. For Xulmus, we'd need consent form Prathyush. 
It would be preferable to get consent from Viktor, but most of 
his code has lately been replaced.

Most of the other contributions, while invaluable, have been 
mainly small fixes which are too trivial to garner copyright. 
Nevertheless, I'd prefer to get consent from everyone no matter 
what we decide to do, even if it is only choosing between one of 
the three current licenses.

-- 
Kris Maglione

Memory is like an orgasm.  It's a lot better if you don't have to fake
it.
	--Seymour Cray


From maglione.k at gmail.com  Sat Sep 19 12:06:43 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 15:06:43 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4AB4A9A8.7000203@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org> <4AB401DC.2000803@vimperator.org>
	<20090918223320.GD3621@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB4A9A8.7000203@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090919190643.GA2177@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 11:51:36AM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>Wow, that'd be great! I thought about that shortly myself, but
>thought that creating such a script will take longer than
>a manual transfer, especially if we also care about comments
>and attachments.

I think it would take ages to do the transfer manually, not much 
more than an hour to script it.

>and maybe Daniel can provide you a DB dump, so you can play around
>a little?

I have a trac db or two laying around. I'll wait for a dump 
until the issue tracker is locked. If you have read access to 
the db, the dump goes something like this:

%locate trac.db
%sqlite3 /path/to/trac.db
sqlite> .output trac.sql
sqlite> .dump
^D
%bzip2 trac.db

-- 
Kris Maglione

Testing can only prove the presence of bugs, not their absence.
	--Edsger W. Dijkstra


From ted at tedpavlic.com  Sat Sep 19 21:34:36 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 00:34:36 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <20090919185657.GA27259@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org> <4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org>
	<20090917202355.GA29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2B593.8050404@vimperator.org>
	<20090917223137.GC29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2BDB2.8030909@vimperator.org>
	<20090917231925.GD29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB35226.4070602@vimperator.org>
	<20090919185657.GA27259@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <4AB5B0DC.2020304@tedpavlic.com>

> 112	Author: Ted Pavlic<ted at tedpavlic.com>
>
> I've skimmed their commits, and I think that to change the
> license now (to anything other than GPL, LGPL, or MPL), we'd
> only need permission from Martin, Doug, Daniel, Conrad, penryu,
> Ted, and Calmar. For Xulmus, we'd need consent form Prathyush.

I give consent to change the license to anything that you deem 
appropriate (e.g., MIT, etc.).

--Ted


-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

   Please visit my 2009 d'Feet ALS walk page:
         http://web.alsa.org/goto/tedp
   My family appreciates your support in the fight to defeat ALS.

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Mon Sep 21 13:34:15 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:34:15 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] x.x?
Message-ID: <20090921203415.GC20735@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

Hi,

Vimperator.org's trac seems to be on the blink, but DNS and git 
are still up. The feeds are utterly broken, the web site seems 
to work sometimes. I don't suppose it's intentional at this 
point, but I'm curious.

As a side matter, have we decided that we're moving to Google 
Code, and thus Hg?

-- 
Kris Maglione

Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad
judgement.
	--Fred Brooks


From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Mon Sep 21 14:24:15 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:24:15 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] x.x?
In-Reply-To: <20090921203415.GC20735@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <20090921203415.GC20735@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <4AB7EEFF.10604@vimperator.org>

On 09/21/2009 10:34 PM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Vimperator.org's trac seems to be on the blink, but DNS and git 
> are still up. The feeds are utterly broken, the web site seems 
> to work sometimes. I don't suppose it's intentional at this 
> point, but I'm curious.

yeah the hoster is down, dpb has already files a support ticket.

> As a side matter, have we decided that we're moving to Google 
> Code, and thus Hg?


for me yes, unless somebody convinces me of a better hoster in 
the next days (where i am in hospital, clavicula surgery).

google code's customizable issue tracker just is great for
plugins, etc.

From fb at intoxicatedmind.net  Tue Sep 22 05:40:10 2009
From: fb at intoxicatedmind.net (Frank Blendinger)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:40:10 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] browser.link.open_newwindow gets reset from 3 to 1
Message-ID: <20090922124010.GD19024@intoxicatedmind.net>

Hi,

I recently upgrade to Firefox 3.5 and Vimperator git HEAD. I have
noticed that since then, the "open new windows as new tabs" behaviour
that I was used to did not work anymore.

The Firefox setting "browser.link.open_newwindow" is responsible for
that, and I noticed that it was set to 1 instead of 3 (which is the
default and the behaviour I want). So I thought just setting it back to
3 would be enough to fix that, but it keeps on getting set back to 1.

I noticed that Vimperator also keeps a backup copy of that setting:

    browser.link.open_newwindow=1 (default: 3)
    extensions.liberator.saved.browser.link.open_newwindow=1
    liberator.saved.browser.link.open_newwindow=3

I suppose the latter is a leftover from an earlier version.

Anyways, I tried setting all of those variables to 3, both with :set!
and via about:config, but those only help temporarily. After the next
restart, browser.link.open_newwindow and
extensions.liberator.saved.browser.link.open_newwindow are back to 1
(liberator.saved.browser.link.open_newwindow stays untouched, I guess it
is not used anymore).

I even put the "set! ..." commands into my rc, to no avail.


So is this a Firefox bug, a Vimperator bug, or am I doing anything wrong
here? Can someone reproduce this?


Greetings,
Frank

-- 
Frank Blendinger | fb(at)intoxicatedmind.net | GPG: 0x0BF2FE7A
Fingerprint: BB64 F2B8 DFD8 BF90 0F2E 892B 72CF 7A41 0BF2 FE7A
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From ted at tedpavlic.com  Tue Sep 22 06:28:57 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 09:28:57 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] browser.link.open_newwindow gets reset from 3 to 1
In-Reply-To: <20090922124010.GD19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
References: <20090922124010.GD19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
Message-ID: <4AB8D119.8000400@tedpavlic.com>

> So is this a Firefox bug, a Vimperator bug, or am I doing anything wrong
> here? Can someone reproduce this?

browser.link.open_newwindow = 3 (default) for me


Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.1.3) 
Gecko/20090824 Firefox/3.5.3


I don't think I've pulled down a new Vimperator in the last couple of 
days, but otherwise I should be pretty much at HEAD.


Are you sure some other extension isn't clobbering the setting for you?

--Ted


-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

   Please visit my 2009 d'Feet ALS walk page:
         http://web.alsa.org/goto/tedp
   My family appreciates your support in the fight to defeat ALS.

From fb at intoxicatedmind.net  Tue Sep 22 07:40:36 2009
From: fb at intoxicatedmind.net (Frank Blendinger)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 16:40:36 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] browser.link.open_newwindow gets reset from 3 to 1
In-Reply-To: <4AB8D119.8000400@tedpavlic.com>
References: <20090922124010.GD19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
	<4AB8D119.8000400@tedpavlic.com>
Message-ID: <20090922144036.GF19024@intoxicatedmind.net>

Hi.

On Tue 2009-09-22 09:28, Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com> proclaimed:
>> So is this a Firefox bug, a Vimperator bug, or am I doing anything wrong
>> here? Can someone reproduce this?
>
> browser.link.open_newwindow = 3 (default) for me
>
>
> Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.1.3)  
> Gecko/20090824 Firefox/3.5.3
>
>
> I don't think I've pulled down a new Vimperator in the last couple of  
> days, but otherwise I should be pretty much at HEAD.
>
>
> Are you sure some other extension isn't clobbering the setting for you?

I can't say for sure, but I don't think so, as non of them has been
updated for a while. And this started to happen after I installed
Firefox 3.5 (iceweasel 3.5.3-1 from Debian experimental) and updated
Vimperator.

When do those variable backups get set by Vimperator? It _could_ be
another extension, that sets the value and after that Vimperator copies
the value to its backup setting, but this seems quite unlikely to me.


Greetings,
Frank

-- 
Frank Blendinger | fb(at)intoxicatedmind.net | GPG: 0x0BF2FE7A
Fingerprint: BB64 F2B8 DFD8 BF90 0F2E 892B 72CF 7A41 0BF2 FE7A
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From conrad.irwin at googlemail.com  Tue Sep 22 07:45:22 2009
From: conrad.irwin at googlemail.com (Conrad Irwin)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 15:45:22 +0100
Subject: [Vimperator] browser.link.open_newwindow gets reset from 3 to 1
In-Reply-To: <20090922144036.GF19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
References: <20090922124010.GD19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
	<4AB8D119.8000400@tedpavlic.com>
	<20090922144036.GF19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
Message-ID: <1253630723.23678.6.camel@localhost>

On Tue, 2009-09-22 at 16:40 +0200, Frank Blendinger wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> On Tue 2009-09-22 09:28, Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com> proclaimed:
> >> So is this a Firefox bug, a Vimperator bug, or am I doing anything wrong
> >> here? Can someone reproduce this?
> >

I can reproduce this, I had assumed it had something to do with the
recent refactoring of :set popups, but even though popups=tab (which is
the default, and should correspond to a open_newwindow of 3) it is
always reset to 1.

> > Are you sure some other extension isn't clobbering the setting for you?
> 

I have not yet investigated.

Conrad


From dougkearns at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 08:02:25 2009
From: dougkearns at gmail.com (Doug Kearns)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 01:02:25 +1000
Subject: [Vimperator] browser.link.open_newwindow gets reset from 3 to 1
In-Reply-To: <1253630723.23678.6.camel@localhost>
References: <20090922124010.GD19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
	<4AB8D119.8000400@tedpavlic.com> 
	<20090922144036.GF19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
	<1253630723.23678.6.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <644fc65e0909220802s6731b873y11c14dcd4e37bbde@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 12:45 AM, Conrad Irwin
<conrad.irwin at googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-09-22 at 16:40 +0200, Frank Blendinger wrote:
>> Hi.
>>
>> On Tue 2009-09-22 09:28, Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com> proclaimed:
>> >> So is this a Firefox bug, a Vimperator bug, or am I doing anything wrong
>> >> here? Can someone reproduce this?
>> >
>
> I can reproduce this, I had assumed it had something to do with the
> recent refactoring of :set popups, but even though popups=tab (which is
> the default, and should correspond to a open_newwindow of 3) it is
> always reset to 1.

Fixed.

Doug

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 10:59:59 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:59:59 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] browser.link.open_newwindow gets reset from 3 to 1
In-Reply-To: <20090922144036.GF19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
References: <20090922124010.GD19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
	<4AB8D119.8000400@tedpavlic.com>
	<20090922144036.GF19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
Message-ID: <20090922175959.GA25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 04:40:36PM +0200, Frank Blendinger wrote:
>When do those variable backups get set by Vimperator? It _could_ be
>another extension, that sets the value and after that Vimperator copies
>the value to its backup setting, but this seems quite unlikely to me.

They're saved so that if the user or some other extension 
changes the value, we can warn the user that we're changing it 
back. That was the theory, anyway. Unfortunately, those warnings 
are usually issued at startup, and dissapear before the user can 
actually read them. Mind you, when I added the warnings, I made 
certain they'd stay visible, but someone else decided that 
wasn't good. The rationale was that a user could just type 
:messages, and that noone would really care, anyway. How they 
would know to type :messages when they hadn't seen the warning 
is beyond me. And, now that this has come up on the list for the 
third time (along with many times on IRC), it seems apparent 
that users do indeed care.

-- 
Kris Maglione

Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent
and well informed just to be undecided about them.
	--Laurence J. Peter


From dougkearns at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 11:31:18 2009
From: dougkearns at gmail.com (Doug Kearns)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 04:31:18 +1000
Subject: [Vimperator] browser.link.open_newwindow gets reset from 3 to 1
In-Reply-To: <20090922175959.GA25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <20090922124010.GD19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
	<4AB8D119.8000400@tedpavlic.com> 
	<20090922144036.GF19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
	<20090922175959.GA25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <644fc65e0909221131m3c14ed58qfa5cd4d865037055@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 3:59 AM, Kris Maglione <maglione.k at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 04:40:36PM +0200, Frank Blendinger wrote:
>>
>> When do those variable backups get set by Vimperator? It _could_ be
>> another extension, that sets the value and after that Vimperator copies
>> the value to its backup setting, but this seems quite unlikely to me.
>
> They're saved so that if the user or some other extension changes the value,
> we can warn the user that we're changing it back. That was the theory,
> anyway. Unfortunately, those warnings are usually issued at startup, and
> dissapear before the user can actually read them. Mind you, when I added the
> warnings, I made certain they'd stay visible, but someone else decided that
> wasn't good. The rationale was that a user could just type :messages, and
> that noone would really care, anyway. How they would know to type :messages
> when they hadn't seen the warning is beyond me. And, now that this has come
> up on the list for the third time (along with many times on IRC), it seems
> apparent that users do indeed care.

+1, messages is broken.  I almost forget because my local version is
'fixed', however, it's becoming a FAQ in #vimperator too.

But we've been here before... ;-)

Doug

From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Tue Sep 22 13:48:18 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:48:18 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] browser.link.open_newwindow gets reset from 3 to 1
In-Reply-To: <644fc65e0909221131m3c14ed58qfa5cd4d865037055@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090922124010.GD19024@intoxicatedmind.net>	<4AB8D119.8000400@tedpavlic.com>
	<20090922144036.GF19024@intoxicatedmind.net>	<20090922175959.GA25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<644fc65e0909221131m3c14ed58qfa5cd4d865037055@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AB93812.3010409@vimperator.org>

On 09/22/2009 08:31 PM, Doug Kearns wrote:

> +1, messages is broken.  I almost forget because my local version is
> 'fixed', however, it's becoming a FAQ in #vimperator too.


Well, if we redesigned the messages system to be always non-interactive
I'd have no problem. I would suggest people who do not use
Ubuntu, to read into how they have their messaging system setup:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD

First I was really skeptical, now I really think they got it right.

The main important thing is, such non-important messages should
always be non-interactive, but your (and Kris') suggested idea DOES get
interactive - and even worse - only interactive if there are >1
messages waiting. Even Mozilla agreed that their "non-interactive"
notifications (e.g. the yellow "do you want to save password" etc.
prompts often ARE interactive for user) and will change it to something
better: 

https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/Projects/Doorhanger_notifications


Again, please read that, I really have to agree with both pages mostly
and a poping up command output window is certainly not something I
consider good usability, but I agree, we could do better if we moved
to a "next generation" interface for notifications.

> But we've been here before... ;-)


Yeah :) BUT if somebody wants to create a ubuntu-like passive
notification system which displays messages to the lower right
I'd be totally ok for me.

From fb at intoxicatedmind.net  Tue Sep 22 14:33:22 2009
From: fb at intoxicatedmind.net (Frank Blendinger)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 23:33:22 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] browser.link.open_newwindow gets reset from 3 to 1
In-Reply-To: <644fc65e0909220802s6731b873y11c14dcd4e37bbde@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090922124010.GD19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
	<4AB8D119.8000400@tedpavlic.com>
	<20090922144036.GF19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
	<1253630723.23678.6.camel@localhost>
	<644fc65e0909220802s6731b873y11c14dcd4e37bbde@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090922213322.GG19024@intoxicatedmind.net>

Hi.

On Wed 2009-09-23 01:02, Doug Kearns <dougkearns at gmail.com> proclaimed:
> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 12:45 AM, Conrad Irwin
> <conrad.irwin at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, 2009-09-22 at 16:40 +0200, Frank Blendinger wrote:
> >> Hi.
> >>
> >> On Tue 2009-09-22 09:28, Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com> proclaimed:
> >> >> So is this a Firefox bug, a Vimperator bug, or am I doing anything wrong
> >> >> here? Can someone reproduce this?
> >> >
> >
> > I can reproduce this, I had assumed it had something to do with the
> > recent refactoring of :set popups, but even though popups=tab (which is
> > the default, and should correspond to a open_newwindow of 3) it is
> > always reset to 1.
> 
> Fixed.

Great, thanks.


Greetings,
Frank

-- 
Frank Blendinger | fb(at)intoxicatedmind.net | GPG: 0x0BF2FE7A
Fingerprint: BB64 F2B8 DFD8 BF90 0F2E 892B 72CF 7A41 0BF2 FE7A
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From maglione.k at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 15:19:05 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:19:05 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] browser.link.open_newwindow gets reset from 3 to 1
In-Reply-To: <4AB93812.3010409@vimperator.org>
References: <20090922124010.GD19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
	<4AB8D119.8000400@tedpavlic.com>
	<20090922144036.GF19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
	<20090922175959.GA25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<644fc65e0909221131m3c14ed58qfa5cd4d865037055@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AB93812.3010409@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090922221905.GB25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 10:48:18PM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>Even Mozilla agreed that their "non-interactive"
>notifications (e.g. the yellow "do you want to save password" etc.
>prompts often ARE interactive for user) and will change it to something
>better: 

I can't stand those fucking things. They hang around until you 
click on them, and since I can't stand them hanging around, they 
don't do any less to interrupt my flow. And I find them less 
usable than the dialog that they replaced. I've actually been 
meaning to intercept them and replace them with a Vimperator 
prompt for ages now.

-- 
Kris Maglione

Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be
one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of
blindfolded Fear.
	--Thomas Jefferson


From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Tue Sep 22 16:05:39 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 01:05:39 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] browser.link.open_newwindow gets reset from 3 to 1
In-Reply-To: <20090922221905.GB25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <20090922124010.GD19024@intoxicatedmind.net>	<4AB8D119.8000400@tedpavlic.com>	<20090922144036.GF19024@intoxicatedmind.net>	<20090922175959.GA25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>	<644fc65e0909221131m3c14ed58qfa5cd4d865037055@mail.gmail.com>	<4AB93812.3010409@vimperator.org>
	<20090922221905.GB25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <4AB95843.7050307@vimperator.org>

On 09/23/2009 12:19 AM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> I can't stand those fucking things. They hang around until you 
> click on them, and since I can't stand them hanging around, they 
> don't do any less to interrupt my flow. And I find them less 
> usable than the dialog that they replaced. I've actually been 
> meaning to intercept them and replace them with a Vimperator 
> prompt for ages now.


BTW: the ubuntu notifications can't even be clicked.
Exactly for that reason, that it shouldnt interupt your workflow.
They just get nearly transparent when hovering over them, and
allow click through to the window below.

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 16:15:11 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:15:11 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] browser.link.open_newwindow gets reset from 3 to 1
In-Reply-To: <4AB95843.7050307@vimperator.org>
References: <20090922124010.GD19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
	<4AB8D119.8000400@tedpavlic.com>
	<20090922144036.GF19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
	<20090922175959.GA25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<644fc65e0909221131m3c14ed58qfa5cd4d865037055@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AB93812.3010409@vimperator.org>
	<20090922221905.GB25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB95843.7050307@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090922231511.GD25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 01:05:39AM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>BTW: the ubuntu notifications can't even be clicked.
>Exactly for that reason, that it shouldnt interupt your workflow.
>They just get nearly transparent when hovering over them, and
>allow click through to the window below.

Hm, so you can't get rid of them once you've acknowledged them? 
Seems modestly brilliant. That kind of thing does interrupt my 
workflow. The messages like the ones we're talking about, 
though, don't. The important ones that show up at startup are, 
well, at startup before you've even started a workflow. The 
others are all at transitions, when you'd expect them anyway.

At any rate, I think a good compromise would be to show 
something like 'Multiple messages waiting. Type :messages to 
view them.' unless, perhaps, 'showmessages' is true.

-- 
Kris Maglione

If you don't think carefully, you might think that programming is just
typing statements in a programming language.
	--Ward Cunningham


From ted at tedpavlic.com  Tue Sep 22 16:29:12 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:29:12 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] browser.link.open_newwindow gets reset from 3 to 1
In-Reply-To: <20090922231511.GD25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <20090922124010.GD19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
	<4AB8D119.8000400@tedpavlic.com>
	<20090922144036.GF19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
	<20090922175959.GA25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<644fc65e0909221131m3c14ed58qfa5cd4d865037055@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AB93812.3010409@vimperator.org>
	<20090922221905.GB25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB95843.7050307@vimperator.org>
	<20090922231511.GD25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <4AB95DC8.7070907@tedpavlic.com>

> At any rate, I think a good compromise would be to show
> something like 'Multiple messages waiting. Type :messages to
> view them.' unless, perhaps, 'showmessages' is true.

+1

-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

   Please visit my 2009 d'Feet ALS walk page:
         http://web.alsa.org/goto/tedp
   My family appreciates your support in the fight to defeat ALS.

From dougkearns at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 21:46:39 2009
From: dougkearns at gmail.com (Doug Kearns)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 14:46:39 +1000
Subject: [Vimperator] browser.link.open_newwindow gets reset from 3 to 1
In-Reply-To: <4AB93812.3010409@vimperator.org>
References: <20090922124010.GD19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
	<4AB8D119.8000400@tedpavlic.com> 
	<20090922144036.GF19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
	<20090922175959.GA25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid> 
	<644fc65e0909221131m3c14ed58qfa5cd4d865037055@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4AB93812.3010409@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <644fc65e0909222146v4b2e742fxf0f1a67bc11c3b4f@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 6:48 AM, Martin Stubenschrott
<stubenschrott at vimperator.org> wrote:
> On 09/22/2009 08:31 PM, Doug Kearns wrote:
>
>> +1, messages is broken. ?I almost forget because my local version is
>> 'fixed', however, it's becoming a FAQ in #vimperator too.
>
> Well, if we redesigned the messages system to be always non-interactive
> I'd have no problem. I would suggest people who do not use
> Ubuntu, to read into how they have their messaging system setup:
>
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD
>
> First I was really skeptical, now I really think they got it right.

As am I, without having tried it. But either way, it has nothing to do
with VIMperator.  I really think we should fork off a Vim-compatible
version after the next release.

> The main important thing is, such non-important messages should
> always be non-interactive, but your (and Kris') suggested idea DOES get
> interactive - and even worse - only interactive if there are >1
> messages waiting. Even Mozilla agreed that their "non-interactive"
> notifications (e.g. the yellow "do you want to save password" etc.
> prompts often ARE interactive for user) and will change it to something
> better:
>
> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/Projects/Doorhanger_notifications

Maybe I'm misreading it but it seems to be pretty much exactly the
Vim-like system (:set nomore) with Kris' proposed addition?

> Again, please read that, I really have to agree with both pages mostly
> and a poping up command output window is certainly not something I
> consider good usability, but I agree, we could do better if we moved
> to a "next generation" interface for notifications.
>
>> But we've been here before... ;-)
>
>
> Yeah :) BUT if somebody wants to create a ubuntu-like passive
> notification system which displays messages to the lower right
> I'd be totally ok for me.

The maine_coon plugin implements something similar from memory but I
didn't like it.

Doug

From dougkearns at gmail.com  Tue Sep 22 21:48:26 2009
From: dougkearns at gmail.com (Doug Kearns)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 14:48:26 +1000
Subject: [Vimperator] browser.link.open_newwindow gets reset from 3 to 1
In-Reply-To: <20090922231511.GD25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <20090922124010.GD19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
	<4AB8D119.8000400@tedpavlic.com> 
	<20090922144036.GF19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
	<20090922175959.GA25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid> 
	<644fc65e0909221131m3c14ed58qfa5cd4d865037055@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4AB93812.3010409@vimperator.org>
	<20090922221905.GB25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid> 
	<4AB95843.7050307@vimperator.org>
	<20090922231511.GD25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <644fc65e0909222148w3ca6ba55kd6061047176031ba@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Kris Maglione <maglione.k at gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
> At any rate, I think a good compromise would be to show something like
> 'Multiple messages waiting. Type :messages to view them.' unless, perhaps,
> 'showmessages' is true.

Sounds good to me.

Doug

P.S. Diplomacy Kris?

From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Wed Sep 23 04:45:34 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 13:45:34 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] browser.link.open_newwindow gets reset from 3 to 1
In-Reply-To: <20090922231511.GD25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <20090922124010.GD19024@intoxicatedmind.net>	<4AB8D119.8000400@tedpavlic.com>	<20090922144036.GF19024@intoxicatedmind.net>	<20090922175959.GA25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>	<644fc65e0909221131m3c14ed58qfa5cd4d865037055@mail.gmail.com>	<4AB93812.3010409@vimperator.org>	<20090922221905.GB25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>	<4AB95843.7050307@vimperator.org>
	<20090922231511.GD25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <4ABA0A5E.6090508@vimperator.org>

On 09/23/2009 01:15 AM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> Hm, so you can't get rid of them once you've acknowledged them? 
> Seems modestly brilliant. That kind of thing does interrupt my 
> workflow.


As I said (or at least thought ;)), I thought the same before,
but the principle behind this idea was that after a while you
change your mind and do not think anymore, that you could close
messages (as it's impossible). Therefore after acknowledging
one you just keep your mouse where it is, focus on the task
again, and let that message sit there for a few seconds, not
even thinking about it anymore.

I am not saying, there might be people who still are interupted
by them still showing up after you acknowledged them, but without
having it tested yourself for a few weeks if your brain
adjusts to this workflow, we can't discuss this properly.


> At any rate, I think a good compromise would be to show 
> something like 'Multiple messages waiting. Type :messages to 
> view them.' unless, perhaps, 'showmessages' is true.


I agree, that some compromise like that is a good idea, since
so many people disagree with me here. The problem is, that
we use echomsg() quite extensibly and I could imaging that
we might often end up just showing "Multiple messages waiting..."
instead of the real message.

We also use echomsg() for zooming and printing, and the effect
would be visible there. So if somebody wants to tackle this issue,
make sure, you also think about these corner cases (presumably
with verbose=9 set to see all current messages).

Otherwise your proposal is quite fine, I would just suggest this
modification:

Show something like:

Added quickmark x: http://myurl [2 more messages waiting, type :messages to see them]

(the part inside [] could probably be in a middle gray)

so the last message is always visible.

And when do we reset this count? Only when opening the command
line with :, or also when pressing <esc>?

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Wed Sep 23 16:08:54 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:08:54 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] browser.link.open_newwindow gets reset from 3 to 1
In-Reply-To: <4ABA0A5E.6090508@vimperator.org>
References: <20090922124010.GD19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
	<4AB8D119.8000400@tedpavlic.com>
	<20090922144036.GF19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
	<20090922175959.GA25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<644fc65e0909221131m3c14ed58qfa5cd4d865037055@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AB93812.3010409@vimperator.org>
	<20090922221905.GB25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB95843.7050307@vimperator.org>
	<20090922231511.GD25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4ABA0A5E.6090508@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090923230854.GD31960@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 01:45:34PM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>Therefore after acknowledging
>one you just keep your mouse where it is, focus on the task
>again, and let that message sit there for a few seconds, not
>even thinking about it anymore.

I can't do that.

>I am not saying, there might be people who still are interupted
>by them still showing up after you acknowledged them, but without
>having it tested yourself for a few weeks if your brain
>adjusts to this workflow, we can't discuss this properly.

Looking at the Ubuntu page, I'm coming to realize the Gnome 
people are a lot better at copying MacOS than the KDE people are 
at copying Windows?. At any rate, I've seen these kinds of 
notifications before (in my nemesis Amarok, as well as on OS-X). 
They still rather bother me. Especially the Amarok ones that 
(by default) show up on song change. They're translucent, stay 
there for a few seconds, and yet I can't focus until they're 
gone. I'll admit it doesn't help that they pop up in the middle 
of the screen, but I doubt it will make a difference.

>I agree, that some compromise like that is a good idea, since
>so many people disagree with me here. The problem is, that
>we use echomsg() quite extensibly and I could imaging that
>we might often end up just showing "Multiple messages waiting..."
>instead of the real message.

>We also use echomsg() for zooming and printing, and the effect
>would be visible there.

There's no reason to use echomsg for zooming. It would make more 
sense to add a bit to the status bar when the zoom level isn't 
100%. As for printing, we probably don't need to use echomsg for 
"Sending to printer"; there's no reason to log that. It makes 
sense for "Job sent", though.

Come to think of it, we're usually not even "Sending to printer" 
when we pring that; usually we're just popping up a dialog.

>Show something like:
>
>Added quickmark x: http://myurl [2 more messages waiting, type :messages to see them]
>
>(the part inside [] could probably be in a middle gray)
>
>so the last message is always visible.

I'd be fine with that, but I think I'd rather it be at the 
beginning so it's more noticable.

>And when do we reset this count? Only when opening the command
>line with :, or also when pressing <esc>?

I think the whole issue bears more consideration, but as long as 
we're agreed on a general direction, I'll start working on it.

-- 
Kris Maglione

Memory is like an orgasm.  It's a lot better if you don't have to fake
it.
	--Seymour Cray


From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Thu Sep 24 02:09:40 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:09:40 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] browser.link.open_newwindow gets reset from 3 to 1
In-Reply-To: <20090923230854.GD31960@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <20090922124010.GD19024@intoxicatedmind.net>	<4AB8D119.8000400@tedpavlic.com>	<20090922144036.GF19024@intoxicatedmind.net>	<20090922175959.GA25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>	<644fc65e0909221131m3c14ed58qfa5cd4d865037055@mail.gmail.com>	<4AB93812.3010409@vimperator.org>	<20090922221905.GB25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>	<4AB95843.7050307@vimperator.org>	<20090922231511.GD25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>	<4ABA0A5E.6090508@vimperator.org>
	<20090923230854.GD31960@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <4ABB3754.2020306@vimperator.org>

On 09/24/2009 01:08 AM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> There's no reason to use echomsg for zooming. It would make more 
> sense to add a bit to the status bar when the zoom level isn't 
> 100%.


Sounds like a good idea.

> As for printing, we probably don't need to use echomsg for 
> "Sending to printer"; there's no reason to log that. It makes 
> sense for "Job sent", though.


I haven't printed for a long time but if the time difference of
the 2 msgs is >2-3 seconds, then both messages do make sense.


>>Show something like:
>>
>>Added quickmark x: http://myurl [2 more messages waiting, type :messages to see them]
>>
>>(the part inside [] could probably be in a middle gray)
>>
>>so the last message is always visible.
> 
> I'd be fine with that, but I think I'd rather it be at the 
> beginning so it's more noticable.


For the noticability we could also just print that message
in green, blue or whatever (probably a good idea to reuse some
color code, we really start to have too many things in :hi).

Assume we do a :set showmessages=last/summary/all and
"summary" would be the new default, "last" would be the current
way, and "all" would be to open the MOW when >1 message are waiting.
Then showing the actual message first is really better IMHO.
If we set "last" (the current default) as the new default, I would
not care how the summary looked, but that would counterfeit our
wish to make such messages not lost.
But for the example above, just think about it: If you press
MaMb to quickmark 2 pages, you would probably expect the "Added ..."
message to be at the same place, with your proposal, the position
would jump which probably is not a good UI solution.

>>And when do we reset this count? Only when opening the command
>>line with :, or also when pressing <esc>?
> 
> I think the whole issue bears more consideration, but as long as 
> we're agreed on a general direction, I'll start working on it.


Yeah, that was what I wanted to say. Such UI things always should
require deep thinking before just starting to hack some things up.
On the other hand, we currently clear messages when scrolling or
tab changing. Tab changing probably makes sense, but is scrolling
really a relevant action? I think the best solution would probably
be to have a 5 second timer, after which the message quickly faded out
to white.

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 16:45:57 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:45:57 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] browser.link.open_newwindow gets reset from 3 to 1
In-Reply-To: <4ABB3754.2020306@vimperator.org>
References: <20090922144036.GF19024@intoxicatedmind.net>
	<20090922175959.GA25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<644fc65e0909221131m3c14ed58qfa5cd4d865037055@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AB93812.3010409@vimperator.org>
	<20090922221905.GB25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB95843.7050307@vimperator.org>
	<20090922231511.GD25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4ABA0A5E.6090508@vimperator.org>
	<20090923230854.GD31960@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4ABB3754.2020306@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090924234557.GE31960@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>

On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 11:09:40AM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>> As for printing, we probably don't need to use echomsg for 
>> "Sending to printer"; there's no reason to log that. It makes 
>> sense for "Job sent", though.
>
>I haven't printed for a long time but if the time difference of
>the 2 msgs is >2-3 seconds, then both messages do make sense.

Yes, both messages make sense, but both don't need to show up in 
:messages. At any rate, the messages themselves don't make much 
sense, because they don't accurately represent what's happening.

"Sending to printer."

<print dialog opens up>

"Job sent."

<dialog opens showing progress preparing job and sending to 
printer>

<several seconds pass>

<dialog says job sent to printer>

>For the noticability we could also just print that message
>in green, blue or whatever (probably a good idea to reuse some
>color code, we really start to have too many things in :hi).

Yes, it'd be nice to make some of the :hi codes more general 
(although a lot of them already are). We don't have (even close 
to) half as many as Vim, though.

>But for the example above, just think about it: If you press
>MaMb to quickmark 2 pages, you would probably expect the "Added ..."
>message to be at the same place, with your proposal, the position
>would jump which probably is not a good UI solution.

Wouldn't that just quickmark the same page twice?
>Yeah, that was what I wanted to say. Such UI things always should
>require deep thinking before just starting to hack some things up.
>On the other hand, we currently clear messages when scrolling or
>tab changing. Tab changing probably makes sense, but is scrolling
>really a relevant action?

Donno. I don't really like messages to stick around at all. 
Especially past command lines. I'm in the habit of pressing ^L 
as soon as anything shows up.

>I think the best solution would probably be to have a 5 second 
>timer, after which the message quickly faded out to white.

Makes sense.

-- 
Kris Maglione

Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be
one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of
blindfolded Fear.
	--Thomas Jefferson


From dougkearns at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 21:47:28 2009
From: dougkearns at gmail.com (Doug Kearns)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:47:28 +1000
Subject: [Vimperator] x.x?
In-Reply-To: <4AB7EEFF.10604@vimperator.org>
References: <20090921203415.GC20735@jg.domain_not_set.invalid> 
	<4AB7EEFF.10604@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <644fc65e0909242147g23b18337ibfe08d481eef08a0@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 7:24 AM, Martin Stubenschrott
<stubenschrott at vimperator.org> wrote:
> On 09/21/2009 10:34 PM, Kris Maglione wrote:
>
>> As a side matter, have we decided that we're moving to Google
>> Code, and thus Hg?
>
> for me yes, unless somebody convinces me of a better hoster in
> the next days

Is there a reason not to just use github for the repo?

Doug

From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Fri Sep 25 01:37:49 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:37:49 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] browser.link.open_newwindow gets reset from 3 to 1
In-Reply-To: <20090924234557.GE31960@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <20090922144036.GF19024@intoxicatedmind.net>	<20090922175959.GA25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>	<644fc65e0909221131m3c14ed58qfa5cd4d865037055@mail.gmail.com>	<4AB93812.3010409@vimperator.org>	<20090922221905.GB25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>	<4AB95843.7050307@vimperator.org>	<20090922231511.GD25257@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>	<4ABA0A5E.6090508@vimperator.org>	<20090923230854.GD31960@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>	<4ABB3754.2020306@vimperator.org>
	<20090924234557.GE31960@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <4ABC815D.30807@vimperator.org>

On 09/25/2009 01:45 AM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> Yes, both messages make sense, but both don't need to show up in 
> :messages. At any rate, the messages themselves don't make much 
> sense, because they don't accurately represent what's happening.
> 

 <snip>

right, for :hardcopy they need to be changed, for :hardcopy! they
are right though, I think.

>>But for the example above, just think about it: If you press
>>MaMb to quickmark 2 pages, you would probably expect the "Added ..."
>>message to be at the same place, with your proposal, the position
>>would jump which probably is not a good UI solution.
> 
> Wouldn't that just quickmark the same page twice?


In that example yes, but the point remains. Or with my proposed
solution of fading messages, one could do MagtMb and have that
result. But well, just try to :set verbose >= 3 so you see the
"Background tab loaded" message, i am sure, that will interfere
with showmessages=all. Some might argue that this message is useless,
others might find it useful, but that's not the point. We should not
try to send fewer/more messages, just because the design of :messages
requires it, but we should send messages, when it makes sense.

>>I think the best solution would probably be to have a 5 second 
>>timer, after which the message quickly faded out to white.
> 
> Makes sense.


We could add a "messagetime" (or better name) option, which defines
how many seconds it shows up. If you don't like sticking them
around, just set that to 1 (or even 0) and no need to constantly
press ctrl-l anymore for you.

From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Fri Sep 25 02:04:32 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 11:04:32 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] x.x?
In-Reply-To: <644fc65e0909242147g23b18337ibfe08d481eef08a0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090921203415.GC20735@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB7EEFF.10604@vimperator.org>
	<644fc65e0909242147g23b18337ibfe08d481eef08a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ABC87A0.8080603@vimperator.org>

On 09/25/2009 06:47 AM, Doug Kearns wrote:

> Is there a reason not to just use github for the repo?


Yes:

1.) It's slow. I constantly use webguis to monitor progress
made on the project (even if we have a commit-mailing list
with google groups in future, having colorized diffs when
browsing changes is just nice) and just does not feel
that responsive as google code's repo browser.

2.) The bug tracker just does not seem remotely as good
as google code's one. And having the repo seperated from
the tracker would have lots of disadvantages:

2a) People would need to register twice if they need commit
access and being able to file bugs. With google code i can
just grant individuals "Project committers" and they can
(at least i think that) not just commit code, but also file
bugs, etc. - a single admin interface for the whole project.

2b) The homepage would look even more like a mess. Currently I
try to have as much end-user content on google sites and just
link directly to e.g. "vimperator plugins" from the main homepage.
If the repo would be at even another hoster, the user would not
just see the google sites and google code homepage design, but
another one - the github repo browser design.

3.) When we discussed between hg/git a year ago, there weren't
some really important arguments for either one, we merely
decided for git, since Daniel who setup the whole system was
more fond of git. I don't think, people would be really annoyed
to use hg for their VCS, as they are quite similar anyway.


Martin

PS: I just created the project at

http://code.google.com/p/vimperator-labs/

And I gave Kris, Doug, Daniel and Conrad "Project commiter" access.
After the move is done, (-> commits are only done there), I'll
write a mail to the remaining ones, so everybody gets their
commit status back.

From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Fri Sep 25 02:12:28 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 11:12:28 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <20090919185657.GA27259@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
	<4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org>	<20090917202355.GA29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>	<4AB2B593.8050404@vimperator.org>	<20090917223137.GC29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>	<4AB2BDB2.8030909@vimperator.org>	<20090917231925.GD29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>	<4AB35226.4070602@vimperator.org>
	<20090919185657.GA27259@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
Message-ID: <4ABC897C.9080300@vimperator.org>

On 09/19/2009 08:56 PM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> I just grepped through the commit log, and tallied the authors:
> 
> 1615	Author: Doug Kearns <dougkearns at gmail.com>
> 809	Author: Kris Maglione <maglione.k at gmail.com>
> 779	Author: Martin Stubenschrott <stubenschrott at gmx.net>
> 112	Author: Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>
> 86	Author: Daniel Bainton <dpb at driftaway.org>
> 45	Author: anekos <anekos at snca.net>
> 39	Author: Marco Candrian <mac at calmar.ws>
> 33	Author: Conrad Irwin <conrad.irwin at gmail.com>
> 28	Author: Martin Stubenschrott <stubenschrott at vimperator.org>
> 21	Author: Prathyush Thota <prathyushthota at gmail.com>
> 20	Author: Viktor Kojouharov <vkojouharov at gmail.com>
> 13	Author: Tim Hammerquist <penryu at gmail.com>
> 7	Author: teramako <teramako at gmail.com>
> 7	Author: janus_wel <janus.wel.3 at gmail.com>
> 3	Author: ?t?p?n N?mec <stepnem at gmail.com>
> 3	Author: U-MAIN\anekos <anekos at main.(none)>
> 3	Author: Daniel Bainton <daniel.bainton at movial.fi>
> 1	Author: mac <mac>
> 1	Author: kenneslin <ken at kenneslin.(none)>
> 1	Author: Timo Mihaljov <noid.phn at gmail.com>
> 1	Author: Stepnem <stepnem at gmail.com>
> 1	Author: Martin Stubenschrott <maxauthority at maxauthority-desktop.(none)>
> 1	Author: Konstantin Stepanov <milezv at yandex.ru>
> 1	Author: Janus Wel <janus.wel.3 at gmail.com>


So it seems, currently for changing to MIT license, we have the permissions
from Doug, Kris, myself, Ted, Daniel and anekos (I asked them via IRC).

So, mainly getting permssion from calmar, cirwin, penryu and teramako
would be nice, but I can't find them on IRC currently, I guess I should
just drop them a mail.

Then we could already release 2.2 MIT-licensed.

@Kris: What holds us back from a 2.2 release? I'd really like to get that
out of the door before we move to the new homepage. We probably do a
2.3 follow-up release anyway.

The only real "blocker" might be the broken hints-display on :help for me,
all other things are really just minor.

From conrad.irwin at googlemail.com  Fri Sep 25 02:16:13 2009
From: conrad.irwin at googlemail.com (Conrad Irwin)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:16:13 +0100
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4ABC897C.9080300@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org> <4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org>
	<20090917202355.GA29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2B593.8050404@vimperator.org>
	<20090917223137.GC29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2BDB2.8030909@vimperator.org>
	<20090917231925.GD29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB35226.4070602@vimperator.org>
	<20090919185657.GA27259@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4ABC897C.9080300@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <1253870173.12659.1.camel@localhost>

On Fri, 2009-09-25 at 11:12 +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:

> So it seems, currently for changing to MIT license, we have the permissions
> from Doug, Kris, myself, Ted, Daniel and anekos (I asked them via IRC).
> 
> So, mainly getting permssion from calmar, cirwin, penryu and teramako
> would be nice, but I can't find them on IRC currently, I guess I should
> just drop them a mail.

You have my permission, I'd have been happy with any choice of license.

Conrad


From maglione.k at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 13:01:17 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 16:01:17 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4ABC897C.9080300@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org> <4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org>
	<20090917202355.GA29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2B593.8050404@vimperator.org>
	<20090917223137.GC29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB2BDB2.8030909@vimperator.org>
	<20090917231925.GD29410@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB35226.4070602@vimperator.org>
	<20090919185657.GA27259@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4ABC897C.9080300@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090925195703.GA17313@jg>

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 11:12:28AM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>@Kris: What holds us back from a 2.2 release? I'd really like to get that
>out of the door before we move to the new homepage. We probably do a
>2.3 follow-up release anyway.

I'd actually be happy to release 2.2 now. There have been quite 
a few fixes recently, so it seems reasonable. It might be nice 
to do something about the safeSetPref messages before then, but 
it can probably wait for 2.3.

-- 
Kris Maglione

Testing can only prove the presence of bugs, not their absence.
	--Edsger W. Dijkstra


From maglione.k at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 23:16:44 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 02:16:44 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Some notes about moving to Hg
Message-ID: <20090926061644.GB17313@jg>

Since it looks like we're moving to Mercurial, I have a few 
notes for devs who aren't used to it. The first, and most 
topical, is GitHub's Hg-Git extension:

     http://hg-git.github.com/

Download it and enable it in your ~/.hgrc and you'll be able to 
push to and pull from git repos. I'm currently working from 
liberator.git via Hg, so we'll see how well it works.

Second, there are a few features of git missing from Hg unless 
you enable them via your .hgrc, in the [extensions] section.

     hgext.rebase =

This enables the rebase functionality present in git by default.

     http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/ShelveExtension

This extension is equivalent to git's stash command.

     hgext.convert =

This adds the convert command, which gives another option to 
import from git.

     hgext.patchbomb =

This adds the patchbomb command, which is equivalent to git's 
send-email.

     hgext.record =

This adds the record command, which is equivalent to 
'git commit --interactive'

     hgext.graphlog =

This adds the glog command, which is equivalent to 
'git log --graph'

     hgext.mq =

This enables patch queues, which are missing from git, but 
nonetheless useful.

Other useful extensions are available at 
http://mercurial.selenic.com/

Third, pulling works a bit differently. Just pulling doesn't 
update the local files in the tree. To do that, run 'hg update', 
or use the -u flag to pull. Merges aren't automatic, either. You 
need to run 'hg merge' to resolve conflicts. It's a good idea to 
set a merge tool in your .hgrc. I use vimdiff:

     [merge-tools]
     vimdiff =

There are a few other differences worth noting, but I certainly 
can't think of them all.

Instead of 'git show', use 'hg export'.

Named branches work a bit differently: http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/NamedBranches

You'll want to add something like this to .hgrc:

     [ui]
     username = My Name <my at email.com>
     ssh = ssh -C

     [email]
     method = /usr/bin/sendmail
     from = My Name <my at email.com>

If you want fancier diff features, like coloring and automatic 
paging,

     [extensions]
     hgext.extdiff =

     [extdiff]
     cmd.vimdiff = vimdiff
     opts.vimdiff = -f '+next' '+execute "DirDiff" argv(0) argv(1)'

and use 'hg vimdiff' (requires DirDiff.vim)
-- 
Kris Maglione

If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research,
would it?
	--Albert Einstein


From dougkearns at gmail.com  Sat Sep 26 01:29:08 2009
From: dougkearns at gmail.com (Doug Kearns)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 18:29:08 +1000
Subject: [Vimperator] Some notes about moving to Hg
In-Reply-To: <20090926061644.GB17313@jg>
References: <20090926061644.GB17313@jg>
Message-ID: <644fc65e0909260129l6c8f1c9o57b41b021a500df5@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Kris Maglione <maglione.k at gmail.com> wrote:
> Since it looks like we're moving to Mercurial, I have a few notes for devs
> who aren't used to it.

Thanks!

Doug

From dpb at driftaway.org  Sat Sep 26 02:47:14 2009
From: dpb at driftaway.org (Daniel Bainton)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 12:47:14 +0300
Subject: [Vimperator] Vimperator.org being down
Message-ID: <dd9711230909260247j6d7a6d8cka4dcff35bcbed866@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

As some of you have probably noticed, vimperator.org has been down a
lot this week.

The server provider is having some trouble, disk corruptions etc. I've
completely lost my faith for the provider, its service has been pretty
crap the whole time I've had it (for example answering emails quite
slow). I'm glad I'm getting rid of it.

Not sure if they have anyone working during the weekend, they should,
but wouldn't suprise me if they didn't.. so I don't know how long it
will take for them to fix my virtual server. The filesystem is pretty
corrupted and has been mounted read-only, trying to access files just
keeps giving me input/output errors, so I can't really backup anything
either...

Everything will become much more easier when we move to google services...

--
Daniel


Ps. Would anyone know of a nice free dns service? editdns.net seemed
ok, but they just changed their free service to be much more
limiting... xname.org seems ok otherwise, but I need to be able to
have SRV entries too, for GTalk/Jabber, which xname.org doesn't
support.

From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Sat Sep 26 03:52:45 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 12:52:45 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Vimperator.org being down
In-Reply-To: <dd9711230909260247j6d7a6d8cka4dcff35bcbed866@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dd9711230909260247j6d7a6d8cka4dcff35bcbed866@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ABDF27D.8090004@vimperator.org>

On 09/26/2009 11:47 AM, Daniel Bainton wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> As some of you have probably noticed, vimperator.org has been down a
> lot this week.
> 
> The server provider is having some trouble, disk corruptions etc. I've
> completely lost my faith for the provider, its service has been pretty
> crap the whole time I've had it (for example answering emails quite
> slow). I'm glad I'm getting rid of it.
> 
> Not sure if they have anyone working during the weekend, they should,
> but wouldn't suprise me if they didn't.. so I don't know how long it
> will take for them to fix my virtual server. The filesystem is pretty
> corrupted and has been mounted read-only, trying to access files just
> keeps giving me input/output errors, so I can't really backup anything
> either...
> 
> Everything will become much more easier when we move to google services...


Yeah!

I just hope, we can get a proper sqlite dump of the trac database, so moving
the tickets will be easier.

I think, given these constant issues, I'll try to get the new page filled
with content as soon as possible, so we can do the move as quickly as possible.

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Sat Sep 26 12:38:40 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 15:38:40 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] x.x?
In-Reply-To: <4ABC87A0.8080603@vimperator.org>
References: <20090921203415.GC20735@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB7EEFF.10604@vimperator.org>
	<644fc65e0909242147g23b18337ibfe08d481eef08a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ABC87A0.8080603@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090926193840.GA7015@jg>

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 11:04:32AM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>PS: I just created the project at
>
>http://code.google.com/p/vimperator-labs/
>
>And I gave Kris, Doug, Daniel and Conrad "Project commiter" access.
>After the move is done, (-> commits are only done there), I'll
>write a mail to the remaining ones, so everybody gets their
>commit status back.

Just for the record, I'm currently pushing to the Google Code 
project, since vimperator.org is down. I'll push my refs back 
there when it's up again, should that come to pass.

-- 
Kris Maglione

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.
	--Leonardo da Vinci


From dpb at driftaway.org  Sat Sep 26 12:42:56 2009
From: dpb at driftaway.org (Daniel Bainton)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 22:42:56 +0300
Subject: [Vimperator] x.x?
In-Reply-To: <20090926193840.GA7015@jg>
References: <20090921203415.GC20735@jg.domain_not_set.invalid> 
	<4AB7EEFF.10604@vimperator.org>
	<644fc65e0909242147g23b18337ibfe08d481eef08a0@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4ABC87A0.8080603@vimperator.org> <20090926193840.GA7015@jg>
Message-ID: <dd9711230909261242s2e4f3418h2314436a321a90a9@mail.gmail.com>

2009/9/26 Kris Maglione <maglione.k at gmail.com>:
> On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 11:04:32AM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>>
>> PS: I just created the project at
>>
>> http://code.google.com/p/vimperator-labs/
>>
>> And I gave Kris, Doug, Daniel and Conrad "Project commiter" access.
>> After the move is done, (-> commits are only done there), I'll
>> write a mail to the remaining ones, so everybody gets their
>> commit status back.
>
> Just for the record, I'm currently pushing to the Google Code project, since
> vimperator.org is down. I'll push my refs back there when it's up again,
> should that come to pass.

It is up already, but I would suggest everyone would start using
Google Code for the code already.

--
Daniel

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Sat Sep 26 12:52:38 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 15:52:38 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] x.x?
In-Reply-To: <dd9711230909261242s2e4f3418h2314436a321a90a9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090921203415.GC20735@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB7EEFF.10604@vimperator.org>
	<644fc65e0909242147g23b18337ibfe08d481eef08a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ABC87A0.8080603@vimperator.org> <20090926193840.GA7015@jg>
	<dd9711230909261242s2e4f3418h2314436a321a90a9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090926195238.GB7015@jg>

On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 10:42:56PM +0300, Daniel Bainton wrote:
>> Just for the record, I'm currently pushing to the Google Code project, since
>> vimperator.org is down. I'll push my refs back there when it's up again,
>> should that come to pass.
>
>It is up already, but I would suggest everyone would start using
>Google Code for the code already.

Really? I just tried to push and it failed.

-- 
Kris Maglione

Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to
build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying
to produce bigger and better idiots.  So far, the Universe is winning.
	--Rich Cook


From dpb at driftaway.org  Sat Sep 26 13:06:55 2009
From: dpb at driftaway.org (Daniel Bainton)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 23:06:55 +0300
Subject: [Vimperator] x.x?
In-Reply-To: <20090926195238.GB7015@jg>
References: <20090921203415.GC20735@jg.domain_not_set.invalid> 
	<4AB7EEFF.10604@vimperator.org>
	<644fc65e0909242147g23b18337ibfe08d481eef08a0@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4ABC87A0.8080603@vimperator.org> <20090926193840.GA7015@jg> 
	<dd9711230909261242s2e4f3418h2314436a321a90a9@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090926195238.GB7015@jg>
Message-ID: <dd9711230909261306w2fb7d142s329805a1d70359ae@mail.gmail.com>

2009/9/26 Kris Maglione <maglione.k at gmail.com>:
> On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 10:42:56PM +0300, Daniel Bainton wrote:
>>>
>>> Just for the record, I'm currently pushing to the Google Code project,
>>> since
>>> vimperator.org is down. I'll push my refs back there when it's up again,
>>> should that come to pass.
>>
>> It is up already, but I would suggest everyone would start using
>> Google Code for the code already.
>
> Really? I just tried to push and it failed.

What error did it give?

--
Daniel

From dougkearns at gmail.com  Sat Sep 26 18:28:53 2009
From: dougkearns at gmail.com (Doug Kearns)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 11:28:53 +1000
Subject: [Vimperator] x.x?
In-Reply-To: <20090926195238.GB7015@jg>
References: <20090921203415.GC20735@jg.domain_not_set.invalid> 
	<4AB7EEFF.10604@vimperator.org>
	<644fc65e0909242147g23b18337ibfe08d481eef08a0@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4ABC87A0.8080603@vimperator.org> <20090926193840.GA7015@jg> 
	<dd9711230909261242s2e4f3418h2314436a321a90a9@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090926195238.GB7015@jg>
Message-ID: <644fc65e0909261828u4c6b8900m2819ec9b24aac6f2@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 5:52 AM, Kris Maglione <maglione.k at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 10:42:56PM +0300, Daniel Bainton wrote:
>>>
>>> Just for the record, I'm currently pushing to the Google Code project,
>>> since
>>> vimperator.org is down. I'll push my refs back there when it's up again,
>>> should that come to pass.
>>
>> It is up already, but I would suggest everyone would start using
>> Google Code for the code already.
>
> Really? I just tried to push and it failed.

Just worked for me.

Doug

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Sat Sep 26 23:00:32 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 02:00:32 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] x.x?
In-Reply-To: <dd9711230909261306w2fb7d142s329805a1d70359ae@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090921203415.GC20735@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB7EEFF.10604@vimperator.org>
	<644fc65e0909242147g23b18337ibfe08d481eef08a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ABC87A0.8080603@vimperator.org> <20090926193840.GA7015@jg>
	<dd9711230909261242s2e4f3418h2314436a321a90a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090926195238.GB7015@jg>
	<dd9711230909261306w2fb7d142s329805a1d70359ae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090927060032.GC7015@jg>

On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 11:06:55PM +0300, Daniel Bainton wrote:
>> Really? I just tried to push and it failed.
>
>What error did it give?

I don't remember, but it seems alright now. At any rate, I'm not 
going to push my latest changes. The Google Code repo is in sync 
with the latest git, plus my latest changes, so I think we 
should all move to using that instead.

-- 
Kris Maglione

Fashion is something barbarous, for it produces innovation without
reason and imitation without benefit.
	--George Santayana


From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Sun Sep 27 02:18:28 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 11:18:28 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] x.x?
In-Reply-To: <20090927060032.GC7015@jg>
References: <20090921203415.GC20735@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>	<4AB7EEFF.10604@vimperator.org>	<644fc65e0909242147g23b18337ibfe08d481eef08a0@mail.gmail.com>	<4ABC87A0.8080603@vimperator.org>
	<20090926193840.GA7015@jg>	<dd9711230909261242s2e4f3418h2314436a321a90a9@mail.gmail.com>	<20090926195238.GB7015@jg>	<dd9711230909261306w2fb7d142s329805a1d70359ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090927060032.GC7015@jg>
Message-ID: <4ABF2DE4.6070602@vimperator.org>

On 09/27/2009 08:00 AM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> I don't remember, but it seems alright now. At any rate, I'm not 
> going to push my latest changes. The Google Code repo is in sync 
> with the latest git, plus my latest changes, so I think we 
> should all move to using that instead.


Yes! Sounds very reasonable.

Probably Daniel should remove write access to the git repo then
or maybe even shut it down?

The only remaining question, which should probably be solved
SOON, is whether "liberator" wouldn't be a better project
name for the google code project than "vimperator-labs".

Four reasons:

1.) https://vimperator-labs.googlecode.com/hg/ is not such a nice,
descriptive clone name. Even with a sub-repo "liberator"
https://liberator.vimperator-labs.googlecode.com/hg/ it's not perfect.

2.) It will hopefully rank that google code page not so high for
people who just search for "vimperator" in google. Just try the same
for "ps3mediaserver" -> their GC project is listed before their
ps3mediaserver.org domain. I would not want the same for vimperator.

3.) With a "liberator" project name, I would focus the descriptions, etc
on the library itself, making it probably even clearer that the GC page
is meant for developers, not so much for end-users.

4.) If we ever created a completely independend project from liberator
(e.g. a Chrome based browser), it probably makes sense to create a new
GC project for that anyway.

IF there is consensus or even appreciation, I will do the move today.

Sorry for the inconvienience, I just started to realize the advantages
of "liberator" today, but feel free to pursade me, "vimperator-labs"
is better for the GC project name.

--
Martin

PS: Thanks Kris for importing the code into the hg repo!

From dpb at driftaway.org  Sun Sep 27 02:58:40 2009
From: dpb at driftaway.org (Daniel Bainton)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 12:58:40 +0300
Subject: [Vimperator] x.x?
In-Reply-To: <4ABF2DE4.6070602@vimperator.org>
References: <20090921203415.GC20735@jg.domain_not_set.invalid> 
	<4AB7EEFF.10604@vimperator.org>
	<644fc65e0909242147g23b18337ibfe08d481eef08a0@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4ABC87A0.8080603@vimperator.org> <20090926193840.GA7015@jg> 
	<dd9711230909261242s2e4f3418h2314436a321a90a9@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090926195238.GB7015@jg>
	<dd9711230909261306w2fb7d142s329805a1d70359ae@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20090927060032.GC7015@jg> <4ABF2DE4.6070602@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <dd9711230909270258x503711bci4b46af28b6c7e6f2@mail.gmail.com>

2009/9/27 Martin Stubenschrott <stubenschrott at vimperator.org>:
> On 09/27/2009 08:00 AM, Kris Maglione wrote:
>
>> I don't remember, but it seems alright now. At any rate, I'm not
>> going to push my latest changes. The Google Code repo is in sync
>> with the latest git, plus my latest changes, so I think we
>> should all move to using that instead.
>
>
> Yes! Sounds very reasonable.
>
> Probably Daniel should remove write access to the git repo then
> or maybe even shut it down?
>
> The only remaining question, which should probably be solved
> SOON, is whether "liberator" wouldn't be a better project
> name for the google code project than "vimperator-labs".
>
> Four reasons:
>
> 1.) https://vimperator-labs.googlecode.com/hg/ is not such a nice,
> descriptive clone name. Even with a sub-repo "liberator"
> https://liberator.vimperator-labs.googlecode.com/hg/ it's not perfect.
>
> 2.) It will hopefully rank that google code page not so high for
> people who just search for "vimperator" in google. Just try the same
> for "ps3mediaserver" -> their GC project is listed before their
> ps3mediaserver.org domain. I would not want the same for vimperator.
>
> 3.) With a "liberator" project name, I would focus the descriptions, etc
> on the library itself, making it probably even clearer that the GC page
> is meant for developers, not so much for end-users.
>
> 4.) If we ever created a completely independend project from liberator
> (e.g. a Chrome based browser), it probably makes sense to create a new
> GC project for that anyway.
>
> IF there is consensus or even appreciation, I will do the move today.
>
> Sorry for the inconvienience, I just started to realize the advantages
> of "liberator" today, but feel free to pursade me, "vimperator-labs"
> is better for the GC project name.


I vote for 'liberator', but I don't care so much.

--
Daniel

From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Sun Sep 27 02:58:57 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 11:58:57 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] google code perl module
Message-ID: <4ABF3761.8040408@vimperator.org>

I have not played with it, but maybe nice for some people who'd like to mechanize some google code things:

http://search.cpan.org/~sunnavy/Net-Google-Code-0.14/

From ted at tedpavlic.com  Sun Sep 27 19:15:29 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 22:15:29 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Some notes about moving to Hg
In-Reply-To: <20090926061644.GB17313@jg>
References: <20090926061644.GB17313@jg>
Message-ID: <4e0a90ed0909271915g4801971at2e790ad6f506d03c@mail.gmail.com>

A good Git2Mercurial conversion table is given at:

http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/GitConcepts#Command_equivalence_table

Also, it's really a good idea to force hg to use gitdiff. In your ~/.hgrc:

[diff]
git = 1

and if you are using things like MQ, you might add...

[defaults]
qimport = --git
qdiff = --git
qnew = --git
qrefresh = --git

Otherwise, you can run into some disasters when you're working with
binary files.

> ? ?http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/ShelveExtension
>
> This extension is equivalent to git's stash command.

Another option is attic, which is very similar to shelve:

http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/AtticExtension

On that page, there is a nice introduction to the difference between
attic, shelve, pbranch, and Mq (each of which can provide similar
stash-like functionality).

> ? ?hgext.record =
>
> This adds the record command, which is equivalent to 'git commit
> --interactive'

Another good option is crecord, which provides similar functionality
as the "commit --interactive" features of tig (the git text-based
GUI).

http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/CrecordExtension

(it's a curses-based record)

> ? ?hgext.mq =
>
> This enables patch queues, which are missing from git, but nonetheless
> useful.

Patch queues are identical to what is implemented by StGit ("stacked
Git"), which is a popular tool built on top of Git.

> Other useful extensions are available at http://mercurial.selenic.com/

I recommend turning on "fetch", which should mitigate some of the
issues discussed below.

http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/FetchExtension

Fetch comes distributed with hg. You just have to turn it on in your ~/.hgrc:

[extensions]
hgext.fetch =

Then, by doing "hg fetch" instead of "hg pull", you get something
nearly identical to "git pull".

> Third, pulling works a bit differently. Just pulling doesn't update the
> local files in the tree. To do that, run 'hg update', or use the -u flag to
> pull. Merges aren't automatic, either. You need to run 'hg merge' to resolve
> conflicts. It's a good idea to set a merge tool in your .hgrc. I use

"hg fetch" fixes all of that.

[ If you like the diffstat that you see when you pull/push with git,
you can turn that in Mercurial as well. There are several methods.
Search for "pull-diffstat" for a start. ]

--Ted


-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Sun Sep 27 19:41:15 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 22:41:15 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Some notes about moving to Hg
In-Reply-To: <4e0a90ed0909271915g4801971at2e790ad6f506d03c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090926061644.GB17313@jg>
	<4e0a90ed0909271915g4801971at2e790ad6f506d03c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a48155040909271941r6c5b46d6kc6ef8d25f0ab2429@mail.gmail.com>

>"hg fetch" fixes all of that.

There's nothing to fix.

From ted at tedpavlic.com  Sun Sep 27 19:50:27 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 22:50:27 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Some notes about moving to Hg
In-Reply-To: <a48155040909271941r6c5b46d6kc6ef8d25f0ab2429@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090926061644.GB17313@jg>
	<4e0a90ed0909271915g4801971at2e790ad6f506d03c@mail.gmail.com> 
	<a48155040909271941r6c5b46d6kc6ef8d25f0ab2429@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4e0a90ed0909271950x53a65b4dm72d137a13a8907b8@mail.gmail.com>

>>"hg fetch" fixes all of that.
> There's nothing to fix.

Sorry. Was trying to be brief.

Fetch intelligently figures out whether updates or merges are needed
and then attempts them in the simplest of cases.

--Ted

-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Mon Sep 28 10:26:59 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 13:26:59 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] x.x?
In-Reply-To: <4ABF2DE4.6070602@vimperator.org>
References: <20090921203415.GC20735@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>
	<4AB7EEFF.10604@vimperator.org>
	<644fc65e0909242147g23b18337ibfe08d481eef08a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ABC87A0.8080603@vimperator.org> <20090926193840.GA7015@jg>
	<dd9711230909261242s2e4f3418h2314436a321a90a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090926195238.GB7015@jg>
	<dd9711230909261306w2fb7d142s329805a1d70359ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090927060032.GC7015@jg> <4ABF2DE4.6070602@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090928172659.GB18792@jg>

On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 11:18:28AM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>The only remaining question, which should probably be solved
>SOON, is whether "liberator" wouldn't be a better project
>name for the google code project than "vimperator-labs".
>
>Four reasons:
>
>1.) https://vimperator-labs.googlecode.com/hg/ is not such a nice,
>descriptive clone name. Even with a sub-repo "liberator"
>https://liberator.vimperator-labs.googlecode.com/hg/ it's not perfect.

Who cares? No one looks at closely at those kinds of URLs 
anyway. And, anyway, I think it looks fine. Even beyond that, 
Mercurial now has native support for sub-repos (to replace the 
Trees extension, I suppose):

     http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/subrepos

so it will be possible to pull down the vimperator-labs repo 
with only the sub-repos (vimperator, muttator, ...) that are 
actually desirable.

>2.) It will hopefully rank that google code page not so high for
>people who just search for "vimperator" in google. Just try the same
>for "ps3mediaserver" -> their GC project is listed before their
>ps3mediaserver.org domain. I would not want the same for vimperator.

I don't see why we shouldn't want it to rank high. It links to 
the homepage, anyway, and it's not exactly user-unfriendly. Take 
Sourceforge as an example. *Noone* uses that as an end user 
homepage, and yet people (used to) use Sourceforge to find 
software that they needed.

>3.) With a "liberator" project name, I would focus the descriptions, etc
>on the library itself, making it probably even clearer that the GC page
>is meant for developers, not so much for end-users.

I don't think it matters, and I don't think it's necessary. 
People know that the Google Code page is almost always meant 
for developers.

I like the project name as is. It's more descriptive of the 
contents than liberator, and has the added benefit of not being 
designed to intentionally scare users away.


The name aside, the project page needs a few things:

1) A link to the homepage in the links section.

2) A Google Group, with a corresponding link in the groups 
    section. The Google Group need only be a mirror of the mozdev 
    group (which is simple to setup and natively supported), but 
    the integration is important.

3) XPI downloads, tagged as Featured, and thus in the Featured 
    Downloads section of the front page.

4) Google Analytics. Not user-visible, but always nifty, and 
    free.

-- 
Kris Maglione

The wireless telegraph is not difficult to understand.  The ordinary
telegraph is like a very long cat.  You pull the tail in New York, and
it meows in Los Angeles.  The wireless is the same, only without the
cat.
	--Albert Einstein


From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Mon Sep 28 12:07:29 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:07:29 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] x.x?
In-Reply-To: <20090928172659.GB18792@jg>
References: <20090921203415.GC20735@jg.domain_not_set.invalid>	<4AB7EEFF.10604@vimperator.org>	<644fc65e0909242147g23b18337ibfe08d481eef08a0@mail.gmail.com>	<4ABC87A0.8080603@vimperator.org>
	<20090926193840.GA7015@jg>	<dd9711230909261242s2e4f3418h2314436a321a90a9@mail.gmail.com>	<20090926195238.GB7015@jg>	<dd9711230909261306w2fb7d142s329805a1d70359ae@mail.gmail.com>	<20090927060032.GC7015@jg>
	<4ABF2DE4.6070602@vimperator.org> <20090928172659.GB18792@jg>
Message-ID: <4AC10971.5010201@vimperator.org>

On 09/28/2009 07:26 PM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 11:18:28AM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>>The only remaining question, which should probably be solved
>>SOON, is whether "liberator" wouldn't be a better project
>>name for the google code project than "vimperator-labs".
>>
>>Four reasons:
>>
>>1.) https://vimperator-labs.googlecode.com/hg/ is not such a nice,
>>descriptive clone name. Even with a sub-repo "liberator"
>>https://liberator.vimperator-labs.googlecode.com/hg/ it's not perfect.
> 
> Who cares? No one looks at closely at those kinds of URLs 
> anyway. And, anyway, I think it looks fine.


It's not (just) about the URL. But following the default instructions
you would end up creating a ~/projects/vimperator-labs/ directory
on your hard drive. For the developer, ~/projects/liberator DOES make
more sense, as that's the internal project name, he is working on.

What if I'll ever host a completely different repo on vimperator(labs).org?
E.g. a plugin for pidgin which would make that more usable?
Or do you suggest, that *everything* vimperator labs ever releases should
be in the one and only "vimperator-labs" repo?

>>2.) It will hopefully rank that google code page not so high for

>>people who just search for "vimperator" in google. Just try the same
>>for "ps3mediaserver" -> their GC project is listed before their
>>ps3mediaserver.org domain. I would not want the same for vimperator.
> 
> I don't see why we shouldn't want it to rank high. It links to 
> the homepage, anyway, and it's not exactly user-unfriendly. Take 
> Sourceforge as an example. *Noone* uses that as an end user 
> homepage, and yet people (used to) use Sourceforge to find 
> software that they needed.


Those links are very easy to miss, especially if you think that
the GC page IS the homepage of the project. And at least I certainly
do follow the *first* link provided by google which seems to be
connected to the project I am searching for. (also one reason why I
made vimperator.mozdev.org redirect to vimperator.org, as v.mozdev.org
is still listed first as a google result).

>>3.) With a "liberator" project name, I would focus the descriptions, etc
>>on the library itself, making it probably even clearer that the GC page
>>is meant for developers, not so much for end-users.
> 
> I don't think it matters, and I don't think it's necessary. 
> People know that the Google Code page is almost always meant 
> for developers.

Interesting "study" which you try to extrapolate from yourself (a true
geek/expert) to average-experienced end users ;) If I came to the GC
vimperator page "by accident" and could even find a (badly working, but
that's GC's fault) download link somewhere, I would probably think that
this is a (bad) homepage for the vimperator project. Alone that the wiki
would end up showing 3 FAQ's (one for vimp, one for muttator, one for
xulmus) is probably a bad idea.

I even have the idea to hide the "downloads" and "wiki" tabs from the GC page,
so people will only see the "correct" wiki pages for vimperator (and not for
muttator, xulmus) by following the "wiki" link on vimperator.org

> I like the project name as is. It's more descriptive of the 
> contents than liberator, and has the added benefit of not being 
> designed to intentionally scare users away.

Why shouldn't it try to scare users away? You said yourself, that GC would
be aweful as the homepage, and you are totally right. Therefor it should
scare users away (=they should not find that page easily), and developers
will find the GC page easily anyway

> The name aside, the project page needs a few things:

<snip>

Yeah, I did think about them, and agree with all of that,
but I didn't want to work too much on the page, until I have
definitely decided which project name to use.

PS: Incidentally I tried to create a "liberator" GC page 10 minutes
before you wrote that mail, since I thought you wouldn't care. Google Code
said there is already some (6 year old) project on sourceforge matching
"liberator", and it asked permission from the developer if i might use
the name. So maybe that will ease our decision anyway, but i still
prefer liberator :)

PPS: On the other hand, if we go the vimperator-labs way, then we really
should treat the GC page as an internal hosting tool for wiki pages, repos, etc.
This would include:
a) move the "default" repository to "liberator".
b) remove most tabs on the GC page, so only the "Project home" tab is visible,
explicitly explaining that the user should go to the "homepage".

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Mon Sep 28 13:47:11 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:47:11 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] x.x?
In-Reply-To: <4AC10971.5010201@vimperator.org>
References: <644fc65e0909242147g23b18337ibfe08d481eef08a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ABC87A0.8080603@vimperator.org> <20090926193840.GA7015@jg>
	<dd9711230909261242s2e4f3418h2314436a321a90a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090926195238.GB7015@jg>
	<dd9711230909261306w2fb7d142s329805a1d70359ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090927060032.GC7015@jg> <4ABF2DE4.6070602@vimperator.org>
	<20090928172659.GB18792@jg> <4AC10971.5010201@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090928204504.GC18792@jg>

On 2009-09-28, Martin Stubenschrott <stubenschrott at vimperator.org> wrote:
> It's not (just) about the URL. But following the default instructions
> you would end up creating a ~/projects/vimperator-labs/ directory
> on your hard drive. For the developer, ~/projects/liberator DOES make
> more sense, as that's the internal project name, he is working on.

If the user has the faintest bit of knowledge about any VCS, he'll change the 
last part as appropriate. If not, he'll rename the directory if he doesn't 
like it. At any rate, vimperator-labs is a perfectly suitable repo name, given 
that it's an umbrella repo for all of the liberator-based projects, and not 
for the liberator library itself.

> What if I'll ever host a completely different repo on vimperator(labs).org?
> E.g. a plugin for pidgin which would make that more usable?
> Or do you suggest, that *everything* vimperator labs ever releases should
> be in the one and only "vimperator-labs" repo?

That would be fine with me (especially with sub-repos). Regardless, I don't 
see how calling the GC project 'liberator' effects the issue in the slightest.

> Those links are very easy to miss, especially if you think that
> the GC page IS the homepage of the project. And at least I certainly
> do follow the *first* link provided by google which seems to be
> connected to the project I am searching for. (also one reason why I
> made vimperator.mozdev.org redirect to vimperator.org, as v.mozdev.org
> is still listed first as a google result).

I don't think they're especially easy to miss, and again, I think that most 
users know that Sourceforge, Google Code, Freshmeat, et al are not proper 
homepages. Regardless, though, I really doubt that the name will effect the 
Google page rank much. The most important issue is the number of sites that 
link there, along with the text of the link itself (and a bit of the context). 
The contents and names of the page don't matter much. I was referring, though, 
to Google Code's own search engine, which I know many people use to find 
software they need in lieu of (crappy, deprecated) Freshmeat and 
Sourceforge.

>> I don't think it matters, and I don't think it's necessary. 
>> People know that the Google Code page is almost always meant 
>> for developers.
>
> Interesting "study" which you try to extrapolate from yourself (a true
> geek/expert) to average-experienced end users ;) If I came to the GC
> vimperator page "by accident" and could even find a (badly working, but
> that's GC's fault) download link somewhere, I would probably think that
> this is a (bad) homepage for the vimperator project. Alone that the wiki
> would end up showing 3 FAQ's (one for vimp, one for muttator, one for
> xulmus) is probably a bad idea.

Study, my ass. It's about as scientific as your contrary contentions. But it's 
irrelevant, because the page says, quite explicitly, that it's meant for 
developers, mentions the homepage, and has (should have) a clearly labeled 
"Project Homepage" link in the sidebar.

I don't see what you mean about a "badly working" download link. The downloads 
page can be disabled entirely. The download links to the side are maintained 
by you. I don't see why they shouldn't work as expected.

The Wiki section can be hidden, too.

If the page comes up appearing unprofessional, well, that's our fault and 
should be fixed.  There's no reason to go out of our way to keep users from 
finding it, though.

And, let me comment that I was, for many years, an "average-experienced" 
user. I was a n00b for many years. I spend a hell of a lot of time in IRC chat 
rooms and on mailing lists with users a hell of a lot greener than myself, and 
I'm not taking stabs in the dark.

> Why shouldn't it try to scare users away? You said yourself, that GC would 
> be aweful as the homepage, and you are totally right. Therefor it should 
> scare users away (=they should not find that page easily), and developers 
> will find the GC page easily anyway

Yes, it would be aweful as a *homepage*. It would not be aweful as a *project* 
page, as a suppliment and gateway to a homepage. There's nothing wrong with 
people stumbling onto it and following it to the homepage. If they find the 
homepage first, great. If they find the project page first, that's fine. I 
don't especially care how we get them there, so long as we do get them there, 
and I can't see any reason to intentionally close avenues.

> PPS: On the other hand, if we go the vimperator-labs way, then we really 
> should treat the GC page as an internal hosting tool for wiki pages, repos, 
> etc.
> This would include:
> a) move the "default" repository to "liberator".
> b) remove most tabs on the GC page, so only the "Project home" tab is
> visible,
> explicitly explaining that the user should go to the "homepage".

The Wiki tab should go. It's aweful in the best of circumstances. Aside from 
that, as long as it's well maintained, I don't see why the rest of the tabs 
shouldn't stay. They're, in general, a clean, well designed, and standard 
interface for those who prefer it.

-- 
Kris Maglione

The object-oriented model makes it easy to build up programs by
accretion.  What this often means, in practice, is that it provides a
structured way to write spaghetti code.
	--Paul Graham


From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Mon Sep 28 14:42:46 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 23:42:46 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Which is the better Google Code project name? (Was:
 Re: x.x?)
In-Reply-To: <20090928204504.GC18792@jg>
References: <644fc65e0909242147g23b18337ibfe08d481eef08a0@mail.gmail.com>	<4ABC87A0.8080603@vimperator.org>
	<20090926193840.GA7015@jg>	<dd9711230909261242s2e4f3418h2314436a321a90a9@mail.gmail.com>	<20090926195238.GB7015@jg>	<dd9711230909261306w2fb7d142s329805a1d70359ae@mail.gmail.com>	<20090927060032.GC7015@jg>
	<4ABF2DE4.6070602@vimperator.org>	<20090928172659.GB18792@jg>
	<4AC10971.5010201@vimperator.org> <20090928204504.GC18792@jg>
Message-ID: <4AC12DD6.2090006@vimperator.org>

On 09/28/2009 10:47 PM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> At any rate, vimperator-labs is a perfectly suitable repo name, given 
> that it's an umbrella repo for all of the liberator-based projects, and not 
> for the liberator library itself.

Well, vimperator, muttator and xulmus just share the same repo mostly
for technical reasons (the library and apps are so tightly integrated
that it wouldn't make sense to commit things to 2 different repos; also
mozilla extensions' directory requirements aren't that simple to fulfill).

But I don't see why a completely independent project like e.g.
"chrome-vimperator" or "pidgin-vimp" which shares no code at all with the liberator
library should have the same repo? It would not just create the need for
one more hierarchy inside the repo, but would also spam receipients of a
commit-mailing list which might just be interested in one repo.

> I don't think they're especially easy to miss, and again, I think that most 
> users know that Sourceforge, Google Code, Freshmeat, et al are not proper 
> homepages. Regardless, though, I really doubt that the name will effect the 
> Google page rank much. The most important issue is the number of sites that 
> link there, along with the text of the link itself (and a bit of the context). 
> The contents and names of the page don't matter much. I was referring, though, 
> to Google Code's own search engine, which I know many people use to find 
> software they need in lieu of (crappy, deprecated) Freshmeat and 
> Sourceforge.


Ok, I agree mostly with your point here.

 
> I don't see what you mean about a "badly working" download link.


Clicking the .xpi's only offers to save them, but does not trigger
Firefox's install mechanism (a known bug). On my homepage I would
directly link to a addons.mozilla.org link for the current download,
which does not have that problem.

> Yes, it would be aweful as a *homepage*. It would not be aweful as a *project* 
> page, as a suppliment and gateway to a homepage. There's nothing wrong with 
> people stumbling onto it and following it to the homepage. If they find the 
> homepage first, great. If they find the project page first, that's fine. I 
> don't especially care how we get them there, so long as we do get them there, 
> and I can't see any reason to intentionally close avenues.


Ok, you are probably right, although a single place for entry isn't really
worse either.

 
> The Wiki tab should go. It's aweful in the best of circumstances. Aside from 
> that, as long as it's well maintained, I don't see why the rest of the tabs 
> shouldn't stay. They're, in general, a clean, well designed, and standard 
> interface for those who prefer it.


Well, removing all those tabs would make it much more likely that:

> There's nothing wrong with 
> people stumbling onto it and following it to the homepage.

While [vimperator labs] being much less successful yet, I'd really see it
as something like suckless.org which is a platform for a specific kind of
software. So while unlikely, it *would* be quite cool, if there were other
projects - also by completely different people - hosted as well under the
"vimperator labs" page in a few years.

And given wmii, when looking at:

http://hg.suckless.org/

it also seems every project has its own repository. So even, when keeping
just one GC page, it probably would make sense to create an extra
"liberator" repository.

Anyway, I got permission for using "liberator" on GC, but your points are
also ok, and nothing i'd like to ignore.
It would be nice, if others (also pure end-users) could give their thoughts
on the google code naming issue.

>From what I know, Kris is for "vimperator-labs", Daniel and I for "liberator"
although I could really live with "vimperator-labs" as well, but prefer
an extra repository. Doug's preference was "vimperator" from what I know,
but he doesn't really care.

So what does Ted, cirwin, anekos and all others think?

--
Martin

From arian.kuschki at googlemail.com  Tue Sep 29 01:28:35 2009
From: arian.kuschki at googlemail.com (Arian Kuschki)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 11:58:35 +0330
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org> <4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090929082800.GA4923@alittleroisin>

Hi all

I have been a vimperator user for about a year and I love it. Thank you very 
much to all of you who have spent and continue to spend time and effort to make it even 
better.


On Thu 17, 22:09 +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I think I made my decision to lock myself into google even more :)
> 
> I just played with "google code" and really seems to fit our needs very
> well:

It is probably a bit late to chime in, but I just wanted to add something to 
the Google Code evaluation. First I have to say I am an total Google addict: 
between Gmail, Google Docs, Google Reader, Google Adwords and Google Analytics 
I spent the majority of my time online with Google products, and I think they 
are great. Also the commitment of Google to the open source movement is not to 
be disregarded.

The problem is that I have been living in Iran for the past five months and had 
to realise that a variety of Google service are blocked (from Google's side). 
It came as quite a shock to me to realise what "to lock yourself into google" 
actually means.

These include:
* All downloads, e.g. Google Gears, Adwords Editor, Google Chrome, Picasa etc
* Google Code

This is aggravated by the Iranian governments attempts to also try to block 
all proxy servers they can find,  Tor stopped working here a couple of weeks ago 
for example.

Apart from all the problems that brought for me personally, this also means 
that *all* open source projects that are hosted on Google Code can not or only 
with great difficulties be downloaded from countries like Iran (don't know who 
else might be on Google's blacklist).

I am not sure what the reasons for this behaviour from Google's side are. In 
any case I don't think they are legally compelled to do this, as other sites 
(github, sourceforge...) work fine from Iran. 

Whatever the reason, I personally would not host my open source project on a 
site that closes out people that haven't done anything wrong. This totally runs 
counter to the idea of free software in my opinion.  (Political tensions 
between governments are no good reason to punish ordinary citizens. I am not in 
any way endorsing the Iranian government by the way, that's a whole different 
story.)

I guess you won't change your plans just because of my little email, but I 
wanted to make my point anyway. In the specific vimperator case I guess it 
would be good enough to offer an additional download from vimperator.org. 

Sorry if this was slightly off-topic.

Cheers
Arian

From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Tue Sep 29 01:55:25 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 10:55:25 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <20090929082800.GA4923@alittleroisin>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org> <4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org>
	<20090929082800.GA4923@alittleroisin>
Message-ID: <4AC1CB7D.4010501@vimperator.org>

On 09/29/2009 10:28 AM, Arian Kuschki wrote:

> The problem is that I have been living in Iran for the past five months and had 
> to realise that a variety of Google service are blocked (from Google's side). 
> It came as quite a shock to me to realise what "to lock yourself into google" 
> actually means.
> 
> These include:
> * All downloads, e.g. Google Gears, Adwords Editor, Google Chrome, Picasa etc
> * Google Code


Wow, that sucks! :( Sorry, didn't know that.

 
> This is aggravated by the Iranian governments attempts to also try to block 
> all proxy servers they can find,  Tor stopped working here a couple of weeks ago 
> for example.

That seems just like China's censorship, really, really sad :(

> Whatever the reason, I personally would not host my open source project on a 
> site that closes out people that haven't done anything wrong. This totally runs 
> counter to the idea of free software in my opinion.  (Political tensions 
> between governments are no good reason to punish ordinary citizens. I am not in 
> any way endorsing the Iranian government by the way, that's a whole different 
> story.)


I agree with you here.

 
> I guess you won't change your plans just because of my little email, but I 
> wanted to make my point anyway. In the specific vimperator case I guess it 
> would be good enough to offer an additional download from vimperator.org. 

The google code page is meant for developers anyway, people should always
download from vimperator.org which actually links to the addons.mozilla.org
download. So even though vimperator.org is hosted by "Google sites" which
hopefully is not yet banned, but if it will be banned, people can always
download it via addons.mozilla.org directly. However, for people trying
to always get the latest repository, maybe we could setup a (git?) mirror
somewhere.

> Sorry if this was slightly off-topic.


No need to be sorry, I am very delighted that people do address such things.
The Western media is also quite biased when reporting about the Iran, therefore
it's always good to also here the opinion from people living there.

From dpb at driftaway.org  Tue Sep 29 03:27:31 2009
From: dpb at driftaway.org (Daniel Bainton)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 13:27:31 +0300
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <4AC1CB7D.4010501@vimperator.org>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org>
	<4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org> 
	<20090929082800.GA4923@alittleroisin> <4AC1CB7D.4010501@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <dd9711230909290327u2d9c5730yff2fd3d77b0085dc@mail.gmail.com>

2009/9/29 Martin Stubenschrott <stubenschrott at vimperator.org>:
> However, for people trying to always get the latest repository, maybe we
> could setup a (git?) mirror somewhere.

I tried the hg-git extension, and it seems pretty nice. A git clone is
easy to make with it. I would have made an script automating the
cloning, but my shell apparently has too old mercurial version for
hg-git to work on it... I might look at it later, and install a newer
mercurial in my $HOME.


Is there no extension for git to use a mercurial repo? Do I have to
use mercurial for this?

--
Daniel

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Tue Sep 29 13:04:56 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 16:04:56 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Moving vimperator.org
In-Reply-To: <dd9711230909290327u2d9c5730yff2fd3d77b0085dc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AAA635B.4040208@vimperator.org> <4AB29788.1040106@vimperator.org>
	<20090929082800.GA4923@alittleroisin>
	<4AC1CB7D.4010501@vimperator.org>
	<dd9711230909290327u2d9c5730yff2fd3d77b0085dc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090929200456.GG18792@jg>

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 01:27:31PM +0300, Daniel Bainton wrote:
>2009/9/29 Martin Stubenschrott <stubenschrott at vimperator.org>:
>> However, for people trying to always get the latest repository, maybe we
>> could setup a (git?) mirror somewhere.
>
>I tried the hg-git extension, and it seems pretty nice. A git clone is
>easy to make with it. I would have made an script automating the
>cloning, but my shell apparently has too old mercurial version for
>hg-git to work on it... I might look at it later, and install a newer
>mercurial in my $HOME.

I recommend using this branch, with Hg 1.3:

   http://bitbucket.org/abderrahim/hg-git/

The snapshot available for download has quite a few rough edges, 
and seems to be from a quite stagnant branch. This branch 
requires the dulwich python module.

>Is there no extension for git to use a mercurial repo? Do I have to
>use mercurial for this?

To my knowledge, the only other wire format git supports is SVN. 
If it's that important to you, though, you can do something like 
this:

   hg pull; hg push ../liberator.git

   hg pull ../liberator.git; hg push

-- 
Kris Maglione

Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad
judgement.
	--Fred Brooks


From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Wed Sep 30 09:21:20 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:21:20 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Some notes about moving to Hg
In-Reply-To: <4e0a90ed0909271915g4801971at2e790ad6f506d03c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090926061644.GB17313@jg>
	<4e0a90ed0909271915g4801971at2e790ad6f506d03c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AC38580.1010506@vimperator.org>

First, thank you both for those great tips working with mercurial!

Now, to my tips as one liking new features in interfaces ;)

What blow me first away with git, was that it really tried to make
the command line very usable out of the box. While some/many/all?
will disagree, I found 2 features of git's gui very helpful:

1.) It pages things automatically (I know a lot of people hate that
feature).

2.) It makes nice use of color (maybe only after a config option, but
at least simple to turn on).

While I am not such a huge fan of "everything is a extension" in mercurial,
at least they include lots of useful extension by default,
which makes mercurial also quite usable out-of-the-box.

So if you like color and auto-paging of long commands as well, try these
in your .hgrc:


[extensions]
pager = 
color = 

[pager]
quite = true
# only use pager for output which really needs it:
application = less -iRF


--
Martin

PS: Since we haven't agreed on renaming the GC project, nor on adding
a liberator repository instead of the default repo to GC, I might
leave it as it is for now, as Kris seems to be bother most by that
issue. If we ever add another - independant - project to vimperator
labs, we'll have to move the the repository, but well, that's probably
a thing for the far future, and won't affect as in the near term anyway.

From ted at tedpavlic.com  Wed Sep 30 09:29:38 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 12:29:38 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Some notes about moving to Hg
In-Reply-To: <4AC38580.1010506@vimperator.org>
References: <20090926061644.GB17313@jg>
	<4e0a90ed0909271915g4801971at2e790ad6f506d03c@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4AC38580.1010506@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <4e0a90ed0909300929s70e64249pe59d33b1eede1387@mail.gmail.com>

> [pager]
> quite = true

Flip the t and the e:

quiet = true

Also....

> # only use pager for output which really needs it:
> application = less -iRF

An alternative way to configure less params:

[pager]
pager = LESS='FSRXE' less


(side note: one thing I dislike about hg is that "hg grep" runs much
slower than "git grep". That might not be that noticeable for those of
you with modern machines, but it's a show stopper for me. I find
myself doing things like "hg manifest|grep .ext|xargs grep text".)

--Ted

-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Wed Sep 30 09:37:44 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:37:44 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Some notes about moving to Hg
In-Reply-To: <4e0a90ed0909300929s70e64249pe59d33b1eede1387@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090926061644.GB17313@jg>	<4e0a90ed0909271915g4801971at2e790ad6f506d03c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AC38580.1010506@vimperator.org>
	<4e0a90ed0909300929s70e64249pe59d33b1eede1387@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AC38958.1010902@vimperator.org>

Hi Ted,

On 09/30/2009 06:29 PM, Ted Pavlic wrote:

>> [pager]
>> quite = true
> 
> Flip the t and the e:
> 
> quiet = true

grr, right :( Thanks.

>> # only use pager for output which really needs it:
>> application = less -iRF
> 
> An alternative way to configure less params:
> 
> [pager]
> pager = LESS='FSRXE' less


yeah, probably much better. thanks as well.

> (side note: one thing I dislike about hg is that "hg grep" runs much
> slower than "git grep". That might not be that noticeable for those of
> you with modern machines, but it's a show stopper for me. I find
> myself doing things like "hg manifest|grep .ext|xargs grep text".)

For me, much worse is that both git grep, but also hg grep, do not
color the found search string like "standard" grep does.
That might be fixed in a future version, but at least with my
"hg" version it is the case and makes it much harder to use
than the "shell grep".

PS: You don't yet have commit access to the new repo. I'd like to
add you there, unless you don't have any motivation to commit
things in future. If you like commit access, I fear you have
to create a google account though (and send me its name).

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 09:40:00 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 12:40:00 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Some notes about moving to Hg
In-Reply-To: <4AC38580.1010506@vimperator.org>
References: <20090926061644.GB17313@jg>
	<4e0a90ed0909271915g4801971at2e790ad6f506d03c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AC38580.1010506@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090930164000.GM18792@jg>

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 06:21:20PM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>[extensions]
>pager = 
>...
>
>[pager]
>quite = true
># only use pager for output which really needs it:
>application = less -iRF

http://bitheap.org/hg/autopager/autopager.py

works better.

     [autopager]
     attend = help, log, qdiff, diff, blame, cat, grep, heads, status, locate, branches, tags

-- 
Kris Maglione

I can hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for
if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do
not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother, and almost all
my best friends, will be everlastingly punished.  And this is a
damnable doctrine.
	--Charles Darwin


From ted at tedpavlic.com  Wed Sep 30 09:52:05 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 12:52:05 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Some notes about moving to Hg
In-Reply-To: <4AC38958.1010902@vimperator.org>
References: <20090926061644.GB17313@jg>
	<4e0a90ed0909271915g4801971at2e790ad6f506d03c@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4AC38580.1010506@vimperator.org>
	<4e0a90ed0909300929s70e64249pe59d33b1eede1387@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4AC38958.1010902@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <4e0a90ed0909300952u4a058ddbl9cdd5d57055777f7@mail.gmail.com>

>> An alternative way to configure less params:
>>
>> [pager]
>> pager = LESS='FSRXE' less
>
> yeah, probably much better. thanks as well.

Oh, and make sure you add an ignore list (or whatever the opposite of
ignore is... attend?):

[pager]
ignore = version, help, update, push, pull, merge, fetch, convert,
clone, record, crecord, grep

Otherwise, interactive commands may get squashed by the less pipe. (it
would be nice if commands could be flagged as "interactive" and thus
be ignored by pager extensions)

> For me, much worse is that both git grep, but also hg grep, do not
> color the found search string like "standard" grep does.
> That might be fixed in a future version, but at least with my
> "hg" version it is the case and makes it much harder to use
> than the "shell grep".

Maybe I misunderstand your wording, but are you saying that git's grep
also lacks color for you? It works for me.

Yes, Mercurial's color (and diffstat) support is frustrating.

--Ted

-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Wed Sep 30 09:57:24 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:57:24 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Some notes about moving to Hg
In-Reply-To: <4e0a90ed0909300952u4a058ddbl9cdd5d57055777f7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090926061644.GB17313@jg>	<4e0a90ed0909271915g4801971at2e790ad6f506d03c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AC38580.1010506@vimperator.org>	<4e0a90ed0909300929s70e64249pe59d33b1eede1387@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AC38958.1010902@vimperator.org>
	<4e0a90ed0909300952u4a058ddbl9cdd5d57055777f7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AC38DF4.3050107@vimperator.org>

On 09/30/2009 06:52 PM, Ted Pavlic wrote:

> [pager]
> ignore = version, help, update, push, pull, merge, fetch, convert,
> clone, record, crecord, grep


with the "quit less when <1 page option" i don't think that this is
really necessary, but i still added it just to make sure (and removed
"grep" which for me certainly should be paged by default).

 
> Maybe I misunderstand your wording, but are you saying that git's grep
> also lacks color for you? It works for me.


Yeah, git version 1.6.0.4, quite old, i know, yes.

From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Wed Sep 30 09:59:09 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:59:09 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Some notes about moving to Hg
In-Reply-To: <20090930164000.GM18792@jg>
References: <20090926061644.GB17313@jg>	<4e0a90ed0909271915g4801971at2e790ad6f506d03c@mail.gmail.com>	<4AC38580.1010506@vimperator.org>
	<20090930164000.GM18792@jg>
Message-ID: <4AC38E5D.8060107@vimperator.org>

On 09/30/2009 06:40 PM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> works better.


can you describe that more?

the default pager with 

[pager]
quiet = true
pager = LESS='FSRXE' less
ignore = version, help, update, push, pull, merge, fetch, convert, clone, record, crecord

works fine for me.

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 10:02:36 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:02:36 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Some notes about moving to Hg
In-Reply-To: <4AC38958.1010902@vimperator.org>
References: <20090926061644.GB17313@jg>
	<4e0a90ed0909271915g4801971at2e790ad6f506d03c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AC38580.1010506@vimperator.org>
	<4e0a90ed0909300929s70e64249pe59d33b1eede1387@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AC38958.1010902@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090930170236.GN18792@jg>

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 06:37:44PM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>> [pager]
>> pager = LESS='FSRXE' less
>
>yeah, probably much better. thanks as well.

Not really. 6 unnecessary extra chars, no advantage other than 
unsetting the previous value of $LESS (quite possibly a 
disadvantage).

>> (side note: one thing I dislike about hg is that "hg grep" runs much
>> slower than "git grep". That might not be that noticeable for those of
>> you with modern machines, but it's a show stopper for me. I find
>> myself doing things like "hg manifest|grep .ext|xargs grep text".)
>
>For me, much worse is that both git grep, but also hg grep, do not
>color the found search string like "standard" grep does.
>That might be fixed in a future version, but at least with my
>"hg" version it is the case and makes it much harder to use
>than the "shell grep".

You and your fucking chromophilia. Here:

cat <<! >~/bin/hg-grep
#!/bin/sh
end=
for a; do
	[ a = "--" ] && end=1
	if test -n "$end" -o -n "${a%%-*}"; then
		hg grep "$@" | pcregrep --color "$a"
		exit
	fi
done
exec hg grep "$@"
!
chmod 755 ~/bin/hg-grep

-- 
Kris Maglione

There's no sense being exact about something if you don't even know
what you're talking about.
	--John von Neumann


From ted at tedpavlic.com  Wed Sep 30 10:03:21 2009
From: ted at tedpavlic.com (Ted Pavlic)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:03:21 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Some notes about moving to Hg
In-Reply-To: <4AC38DF4.3050107@vimperator.org>
References: <20090926061644.GB17313@jg>
	<4e0a90ed0909271915g4801971at2e790ad6f506d03c@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4AC38580.1010506@vimperator.org>
	<4e0a90ed0909300929s70e64249pe59d33b1eede1387@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4AC38958.1010902@vimperator.org>
	<4e0a90ed0909300952u4a058ddbl9cdd5d57055777f7@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4AC38DF4.3050107@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <4e0a90ed0909301003m6f82a3bam4e097de542822e66@mail.gmail.com>

>> ignore = version, help, update, push, pull, merge, fetch, convert,
>> clone, record, crecord, grep
>
> with the "quit less when <1 page option" i don't think that this is
> really necessary, but i still added it just to make sure (and removed
> "grep" which for me certainly should be paged by default).

The issue is where the stdin file descriptor goes. Even if less
doesn't page, it still grabs your stdin. That's bad for interactive hg
commands that are looking forward to hearing from your keyboard.

--Ted

-- 
Ted Pavlic <ted at tedpavlic.com>

From maglione.k at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 10:07:25 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:07:25 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Some notes about moving to Hg
In-Reply-To: <4AC38DF4.3050107@vimperator.org>
References: <20090926061644.GB17313@jg>
	<4e0a90ed0909271915g4801971at2e790ad6f506d03c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AC38580.1010506@vimperator.org>
	<4e0a90ed0909300929s70e64249pe59d33b1eede1387@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AC38958.1010902@vimperator.org>
	<4e0a90ed0909300952u4a058ddbl9cdd5d57055777f7@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AC38DF4.3050107@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090930170725.GO18792@jg>

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 06:57:24PM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>On 09/30/2009 06:52 PM, Ted Pavlic wrote:
>
>> [pager]
>> ignore = version, help, update, push, pull, merge, fetch, convert,
>> clone, record, crecord, grep
>
>with the "quit less when <1 page option" i don't think that this is
>really necessary, but i still added it just to make sure (and removed
>"grep" which for me certainly should be paged by default).

It is. Some commands send carriage returns to the terminal, and 
less doesn't like them. You can use -R, but it's still not 
ideal. I prefer to opt in rather than out, at any rate.

-- 
Kris Maglione

The X server has to be the biggest program I've ever seen that doesn't
do anything for you.
	--Ken Thompson


From stubenschrott at vimperator.org  Wed Sep 30 10:09:11 2009
From: stubenschrott at vimperator.org (Martin Stubenschrott)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 19:09:11 +0200
Subject: [Vimperator] Some notes about moving to Hg
In-Reply-To: <20090930170236.GN18792@jg>
References: <20090926061644.GB17313@jg>	<4e0a90ed0909271915g4801971at2e790ad6f506d03c@mail.gmail.com>	<4AC38580.1010506@vimperator.org>	<4e0a90ed0909300929s70e64249pe59d33b1eede1387@mail.gmail.com>	<4AC38958.1010902@vimperator.org>
	<20090930170236.GN18792@jg>
Message-ID: <4AC390B7.9060800@vimperator.org>

On 09/30/2009 07:02 PM, Kris Maglione wrote:

> You and your fucking chromophilia.


Says somebody who changed red/green colors in vimperator
to red/blue which is better for color blind people.
Not that I disagree with your commit, but if colors
aren't that important to quickly recognize things, why
the change?

> Here:

> ...

A classic Kris answer :) Cool.

--
Martin


From maglione.k at gmail.com  Wed Sep 30 10:13:24 2009
From: maglione.k at gmail.com (Kris Maglione)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:13:24 -0400
Subject: [Vimperator] Some notes about moving to Hg
In-Reply-To: <4AC38E5D.8060107@vimperator.org>
References: <20090926061644.GB17313@jg>
	<4e0a90ed0909271915g4801971at2e790ad6f506d03c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AC38580.1010506@vimperator.org> <20090930164000.GM18792@jg>
	<4AC38E5D.8060107@vimperator.org>
Message-ID: <20090930171324.GP18792@jg>

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 06:59:09PM +0200, Martin Stubenschrott wrote:
>> works better.
>
>can you describe that more?

It doesn't launch a pager at all where output is less than one 
page length, doesn't require any special configuration of less, 
takes your prompt into consideration, just generally nicer.

-- 
Kris Maglione

I speak to everyone in the same way, whether he is the garbage man or
the president of the university.
	--Albert Einstein